Audio folks as bad as us...

Bill Burk · Feb 1, 2012

Tried following the OP's link but kept ending up at James Randi Educational Foundation

I think I have proof of the supernatural. My darkroom is possessed.

Neither selenium intensification, new coccine retouching, condenser head light nor dodging and burning could bring out the detail in my negative from the 4x5 negative of the happy couple's first dance. So I tried another happy couple's first walk and the 4x5 condenser wouldn't cover 6x6. The siphon broke twice, at least the floor's clean, twice. But the drymount press, vacuum pump and voltage stabilizer did not need washing. Twice.

Lionel1972 · Feb 1, 2012

Beware of the recent (post 2000) so called "remastered" CDs. I have found that in most cases the older the CD edition the better sounding is the digital transfer.

Steve Smith · Feb 1, 2012

Bill Burk said:
The siphon broke twice, at least the floor's clean, twice.

A few year's ago, I fitted a new central heating system for a friend and did some other plumbing work. When I called him a few weeks later to check on it, he told me it was fine but that his washing machine was now leaking, adding that it was the first time the floor had been washed for five years!

Steve.

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2012

Lionel1972 said:
Beware of the recent (post 2000) so called "remastered" CDs. I have found that in most cases the older the CD edition the better sounding is the digital transfer.

+1. I have some Telarc and Deutsche Grammophon discs from the mid to late 1980s that are far better than some of the latest stuff.

keithwms · Feb 1, 2012

Interesting and relevant, Neil Young's thoughts on the matter....

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/31/tech/web/neil-young-apple-high-def-music/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Klainmeister · Feb 1, 2012

keithwms said:
Interesting and relevant, Neil Young's thoughts on the matter....

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/31/tech/web/neil-young-apple-high-def-music/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Saw that yesterday. My friend was quick to joke "Of course Neil Young wants music listened to on vinyl....his music is only tolerable on that format".

Still am, and will continue to be, a vinyl guy.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 1, 2012

keithwms said:
Interesting and relevant, Neil Young's thoughts on the matter....

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/31/tech/web/neil-young-apple-high-def-music/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Even compared to a well recorded CD, compressed MP3 or AAC files sound like serrated dog doo-doo.

Paul VanAudenhove · Feb 1, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Even compared to a well recorded CD, compressed MP3 or AAC files sound like serrated dog doo-doo.

I concur...

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Even compared to a well recorded CD, compressed MP3 or AAC files sound like serrated dog doo-doo.

Do you mean "poorly recorded CD"? A well recorded CD is pretty good...

We're working on a generation that may never have heard music on anything but a compressed file. Will they be like the folks years ago who, when given a properly vine ripened tomato, didn't like it?

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 1, 2012

E. von Hoegh said:
Do you mean "poorly recorded CD"? A well recorded CD is pretty good...

We're working on a generation that may never have heard music on anything but a compressed file. Will they be like the folks years ago who, when given a properly vine ripened tomato, didn't like it?

I mean any CD, honestly. And I agree that digital can sound extremely excellent when done well. But as we agree, not with compressed music files from iTunes.
It brings back memories of the whole SACD / DVD-Audio scenario. The music industry, especially Sony, backed these high resolution formats, and after releasing it while touting it to sound as good as vinyl, pushing expensive SACD players like mad, they figured out that the majority of the population didn't care and thought CDs or MP3s sounded well enough.

I take your comment about tomatoes, and compare that to the beer and coffee industry. It is now a jungle of micro breweries and niche coffee roasters that cater to a larger and larger percentage of the population; well those that aren't afraid of things that actually have flavor. Soon Maxwell House, Folgers, Gevalia, and McGarvey's will be exotic coffees.

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I mean any CD, honestly. And I agree that digital can sound extremely excellent when done well. But as we agree, not with compressed music files from iTunes.
It brings back memories of the whole SACD / DVD-Audio scenario. The music industry, especially Sony, backed these high resolution formats, and after releasing it while touting it to sound as good as vinyl, pushing expensive SACD players like mad, they figured out that the majority of the population didn't care and thought CDs or MP3s sounded well enough.

I take your comment about tomatoes, and compare that to the beer and coffee industry. It is now a jungle of micro breweries and niche coffee roasters that cater to a larger and larger percentage of the population; well those that aren't afraid of things that actually have flavor. Soon Maxwell House, Folgers, Gevalia, and McGarvey's will be exotic coffees.

Starbucks http://www.illwillpress.com/coffeehouse.html

Paul VanAudenhove · Feb 1, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I take your comment about tomatoes, and compare that to the beer and coffee industry. It is now a jungle of micro breweries and niche coffee roasters that cater to a larger and larger percentage of the population; well those that aren't afraid of things that actually have flavor. Soon Maxwell House, Folgers, Gevalia, and McGarvey's will be exotic coffees.

I think I would be frightened to find out how many of those products are being promoted as 'premium' when they are actually low level products.

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2012

Paul VanAudenhove said:
I think I would be frightened to find out how many of those products are being promoted as 'premium' when they are actually low level products.

What's truly shocking is how few customers can tell the difference.

Paul VanAudenhove · Feb 1, 2012

So true!

What I find shocking is how many people don't want to know the difference! And it doesn't seem to matter if you're talking about beer, audio equipment, photography or coffee. Worse, it seems that even suggesting that there is much to learn and enjoy about a subject gets you labeled as a 'fringe element!'

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2012

Paul VanAudenhove said:
So true!

What I find shocking is how many people don't want to know the difference! And it doesn't seem to matter if you're talking about beer, audio equipment, photography or coffee. Worse, it seems that even suggesting that there is much to learn and enjoy about a subject gets you labeled as a 'fringe element!'

Or a geek, nerd, picky bastard, elitist, etc. ... take your pick. The media are enabling the sheeple and droolers, nobody that watches a lot of tv seems to want to work at enjoying anything.

Paul VanAudenhove · Feb 1, 2012

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. -- HL Mencken

The tragedy is that intelligence or knowledge is considered acceptable to ridicule.

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2012

Paul VanAudenhove said:
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. -- HL Mencken

The tragedy is that intelligence or knowledge is considered acceptable to ridicule.

Yes, and "critical thinking" has become a pejorative term. I keep thinking of the prayer "From bastards too ignorant to realise there is any such thing as smart, may the good Lord preserve us".

Paul VanAudenhove · Feb 1, 2012

Amen!

Roger Cole · Feb 1, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I mean any CD, honestly. And I agree that digital can sound extremely excellent when done well. But as we agree, not with compressed music files from iTunes.
It brings back memories of the whole SACD / DVD-Audio scenario. The music industry, especially Sony, backed these high resolution formats, and after releasing it while touting it to sound as good as vinyl, pushing expensive SACD players like mad, they figured out that the majority of the population didn't care and thought CDs or MP3s sounded well enough.

I take your comment about tomatoes, and compare that to the beer and coffee industry. It is now a jungle of micro breweries and niche coffee roasters that cater to a larger and larger percentage of the population; well those that aren't afraid of things that actually have flavor. Soon Maxwell House, Folgers, Gevalia, and McGarvey's will be exotic coffees.

Maybe - ugh, consider how PBR is now hip in many places. In Atlanta at least this was due to shrewd marketing as they poured lots of money into sponsoring events and such among hipster/goth/etc. areas and groups.

On the audio, I was talking to a musician friend last night who (he admits he has a lot of hearing loss from years of heavy metal and being a drummer) said he can't hear the difference in an 192 kbps or above mp3 and a CD or good vinyl. On my simple gear I can't either. I suspect I could on the right stuff, though, in the right room. I can hear the difference in a 128 kbps and something better. I suppose I'm an elitist in photography and one of the unwashed masses in audio.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 1, 2012

Roger Cole said:
Maybe - ugh, consider how PBR is now hip in many places. In Atlanta at least this was due to shrewd marketing as they poured lots of money into sponsoring events and such among hipster/goth/etc. areas and groups.

On the audio, I was talking to a musician friend last night who (he admits he has a lot of hearing loss from years of heavy metal and being a drummer) said he can't hear the difference in an 192 kbps or above mp3 and a CD or good vinyl. On my simple gear I can't either. I suspect I could on the right stuff, though, in the right room. I can hear the difference in a 128 kbps and something better. I suppose I'm an elitist in photography and one of the unwashed masses in audio.

As usual, in this country where a lot of quality is measured in quantity, I believe that PBR became cool again when it was made available in larger cans.

I hear a difference between a compressed file at any bit rate and sample rate and the original CD. I've made comparisons by uploading well recorded CD material to an Apple laptop via iTunes, one lossless format, and one AAC at 320kbps, and then played via the digital output (bypassing the awful sound card) and into a Wavelength DAC. The difference is not subtle at all. What's funny is that BOTH the AAC and the lossless music file, once downloaded to the hard drive, sounded better than just playing the CD via iTunes and disc drive. Imagine that! (The Wavelength is the best digital front-end I've ever heard, bar none at any price, so it's fair to say the equipment used was extremely good).

CD55 · Feb 1, 2012

E. von Hoegh said:
Do you mean "poorly recorded CD"? A well recorded CD is pretty good...

We're working on a generation that may never have heard music on anything but a compressed file. Will they be like the folks years ago who, when given a properly vine ripened tomato, didn't like it?

Adding to this is the Loudness War when recording CDs nowadays. Here is a video that explains it really well.

http://youtu.be/3Gmex_4hreQ

When you take a badly recorded CD and then compress it even more for convience, there is no way anybody is going to hear what was recorded at the studio. Heck even if you do have one nicely recorded CD, the kids today have no way of knowing how it's suppose to sound. This happens every time a car passes by where all you hear is basically the bass with some of the other music in the background. It's too bad as I was sort of that way until my co-worker who is a big audiophile asked me to come to his house and listen to his stereo system. The first time I sat in his sweet spot he played a Parlophone vinyl Beatles album and it just blew me away. I felt as though the Fab Four was right in front of me.

Even a modest system will be better than what most kids use to listen.

Alan Klein · Feb 1, 2012

I had AR-2A's speakers for 40 years. Played them with my Fisher Stratokit, a tube driven amp-pre-amp that I built in the early 60's. Tubes! With my record player (forgot which one). Dragged the whole setup when I went to Japan in 1965 in the USAF and then home again with an Akai reel-to-reel tape recorder I bought while over there. Then I upgraded to electronic amps, tuners and such but kept the speakers. However, two years ago I finally gave them up realizing the bass cones had separated and probably hadn't played in years. Of course being so much older and losing hearing like other old folk, I didn't even realize it. You might want to verify your AR's just to hear you're really getting the bass OK.

Trask · Feb 1, 2012

Alan, don't give up on the AR-2A's. Lots of audiophiles simply put new surrounds on the cones and get the speakers back into use. My AR-5s and AR-6s are both refoamed and work just like new, especially as I also upgraded the capacitors in the crossover. For more info and to meet people who share your interest in AR speakers, try visiting www.classicspeakerpages.net

Bill Burk · Feb 1, 2012

Trask said:
Alan, don't give up on the AR-2A's. Lots of audiophiles simply put new surrounds on the cones...

You don't have to be an audiophile to appreciate how much better old AR's sound with new foam. Terrible sound -> Great sound. Major difference. No skeptic can say you are deluding yourself about that upgrade.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2012

I find it both interesting and frustrating that many, if not most, of Sony's recent consumer market priced Blu-Ray players Sony are now including SACD compatibility - interesting because it gives me reassurance that at least some thought is being given again to the format, and frustrating because it is tremendously difficult to find a variety of music on SACD.

IIRC Neil Young really promoted SACD when it was new.

I've always thought that if SACD versions were as easily found on the internet (Amazon?) as regular CDs, way more people would be willing to buy music on a physical medium.

Audio folks as bad as us...

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