Attn Simon: Dry Flat FB Paper

Ross Chambers · Sep 27, 2007

Maybe I missed it, and my dial up connection is a bit slow to search extensively, but what happened to Ilford's dry-flat fibre base paper?

Written as I watch a couple of almost flat prints curling up in harmony with the current weather, one can almost predict rain or shine from unmounted prints!

Regards - Ross

Simon R Galley · Sep 27, 2007

Dear Ross,

It is coming......although not in 2007 : I have seen the tests and it really is very, very flat but as I think we explained before we have mega testing to do in relation to archival permanence, this cannot and will not be rushed, we are aiming for a real end user benefits but it must perform in all ways as well as or better than the current MGIV Fb.

Please be assured I will keep APUGGERS up to date with any further developments.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Dan Henderson · Sep 27, 2007

I don't find curling to be a problem. I dry my FB prints face down on screens, then sometimes put them under flat weights for awhile, but usually just put them in storage boxes if they aren't going to be mounted. And of course, mounting solves the problem permanently.

Anyway, thanks to Simon and all at Ilford for keeping the classic photographic process alive and well.

Brian Jeffery · Sep 27, 2007

I presume that either the new flatter paper will be sold at a premium price or existing stocks of MG IV FB would need to be run down before the new paper was released, as Ilford would not want to burden their suppliers with paper that they can't sell

I suppose, what I'm saying is even once the new paper passes all its tests, it still might be a little while before we see it on the shelves.

Brian

jstraw · Sep 27, 2007

I winder if this will be MGV.

tim_walls · Sep 27, 2007

Well, I hadn't heard of this before, but I will say - bring it on! I'll put an order in the day the stuff is released if it works - curling is the one thing that drives me nuts about FB.

palewin · Sep 27, 2007

FWIW, I find Ilford MG FB dries flatter on screens than any other FB paper I've ever used, and at least in my basement, darn close to flat, period. I don't know what most of you do with your FB prints, I dry mount the good ones, so it seems to me that the "dry flat" FB paper is an answer to an unasked question...

eclarke · Sep 27, 2007

I use the Ilford Warm Tone FB developed in a cool tone variation of Ansco 130 and it curls up a lot in my basement. I dry mount it and need to flatten it first but I just love it...EC

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 27, 2007

Conservators, while they might accept and deal work in whatever state it's in, generally don't like dry mounting, because it isn't easily reversible. Non-reversible is by definition non-archival, apart from any benefit that dry mounting may confer with regard to the longevity of the print. Even if it is possible to unmount a dry mounted print that uses so called "archival" mount tissue, it may not be possible to do so, say, if the paper becomes brittle or if the emulsion layer cracks over the course of time.

So one sees a lot less dry mounting of new work in galleries these days. The work won't be perfectly flat, but it is usually fairly flat when printed with a wide margin and overmatted, and I think people are getting used to seeing prints this way. A fiber paper that stays flat would be a positive development for those who prefer not to dry mount but want flat prints.

jstraw · Sep 27, 2007

For me, Kentmere Fineprint and the samples of ADOX MCC both dry much, much flatter than MGIV.

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 28, 2007

That is a very valid point. I used to work at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts and I once or twice discussed mounting with both the person dedicated for that purpose as well as the framer. They both told me "Whatever you do, don't ever dry mount it!".
I'm sure they are biased because getting dry-mounted pieces of work require undoing it to 'archivally' store the print. They did not like that. But all the same, I took it to heart and will never dry-mount a print. I tape with gum tape in a hinging fashion. Hanging in the mat and overmat, the work stays nice and flat anyway. That's in Minnesota now with upwards 90% humid in the summer and downward 15% humid in the winter.
So this flat fiber paper will be most welcome in my darkroom, especially since I print almost exclusively on Ilford paper anyway.
- Thomas

David A. Goldfarb said:
Conservators, while they might accept and deal work in whatever state it's in, generally don't like dry mounting, because it isn't easily reversible. Non-reversible is by definition non-archival, apart from any benefit that dry mounting may confer with regard to the longevity of the print. Even if it is possible to unmount a dry mounted print that uses so called "archival" mount tissue, it may not be possible to do so, say, if the paper becomes brittle or if the emulsion layer cracks over the course of time.

So one sees a lot less dry mounting of new work in galleries these days. The work won't be perfectly flat, but it is usually fairly flat when printed with a wide margin and overmatted, and I think people are getting used to seeing prints this way. A fiber paper that stays flat would be a positive development for those who prefer not to dry mount but want flat prints.

greybeard · Sep 28, 2007

For what it is worth, switching from Kodak (hardening) fixer to the M&P Smith procedure (hypo + bisulfite first bath, plain hypo second bath) seems to have greatly reduced the curling of prints on Ilford fiber base. On the other hand, with fall coming on, humidity is now slightly higher, so the fixer may not be the full story.

rjas · Sep 29, 2007

Kentmere Fineprint does dry nearly flat even when hung to dry from a clothesline. I was impressed

Dave Miller · Sep 29, 2007

rjas said:
Kentmere Fineprint does dry nearly flat even when hung to dry from a clothesline. I was impressed

Possible that was because it was hung from a clothesline?

rjas · Sep 29, 2007

Dave Miller said:
Possible that was because it was hung from a clothesline?

I should elaborate - I only use one clip on one corner and usually with any other paper it dries to a disgusting curl (almost rolled into itself) that only flattening in a press will get rid of. I could just use 1 clip on each corner but... I don't have enough clips!

johnnywalker · Sep 29, 2007

That's sure not my experience with Kentmere (the only FB I've tried so far). In my case it seems to get curls within the curls. My next step was to try the taping to glass method. Personally, I'm very much looking forward to Ilford's new product.

Dave Miller · Sep 30, 2007

johnnywalker said:
That's sure not my experience with Kentmere (the only FB I've tried so far). In my case it seems to get curls within the curls. My next step was to try the taping to glass method. Personally, I'm very much looking forward to Ilford's new product.

I agree, it's my experience that all FB papers curl at about the same extent, but by pegging mine to a line to dry with two top pegs, and two on the base as weights I mitigate the problem. The glass method works very well indeed for those with patience and a low work flow, if you use a dry-down factor then you may find it necessary to adjust it.

Attn Simon: Dry Flat FB Paper

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