Athenatype chemistry

scopa · Jan 27, 2022

I've been reading through Christopher James' excellent book on Alternative Processes and came across the chapter on Athenatypes. Next step was sourcing the chemicals but I've found it almost impossible to find someone who is willing to supply me with Guanidine Carbonate.

Having had my fingers burnt, when I purchased a chemical based upon its CAS number, I thought it might be a good idea to check with the collective wisdom on this forum if this https://apcpure.com/product/guanidi...LB2nZeGVvRy4Iza9ITjxQKWnyhmT7GW8aAtxEEALw_wcB is the same as Guanidine Carbonate? It has the same CAS number and the molecular formula agrees with the one shown on some other websites.

nmp · Jan 30, 2022

scopa said:
I've been reading through Christopher James' excellent book on Alternative Processes and came across the chapter on Athenatypes. Next step was sourcing the chemicals but I've found it almost impossible to find someone who is willing to supply me with Guanidine Carbonate.

Having had my fingers burnt, when I purchased a chemical based upon its CAS number, I thought it might be a good idea to check with the collective wisdom on this forum if this https://apcpure.com/product/guanidi...LB2nZeGVvRy4Iza9ITjxQKWnyhmT7GW8aAtxEEALw_wcB is the same as Guanidine Carbonate? It has the same CAS number and the molecular formula agrees with the one shown on some other websites.

I guess this athenatype is so un-conventional, there is no conventional wisdom for it....

I will take a stab at it: It looks like the discrepancy is the term guanidine vs guandinium as it is termed on the website. The specs look fine including the CAS No. I think guanidine is more common name but probably guanidium is the more correct term - similar to ammonia vs ammonium. The later is what the cation is called as it is formed when dissolved in water.

Just to make sure, may be you can get the most definitive answer from DIck Sullivan (of B&S fame) who invented the process in the first place.

Good luck...it looks like an interesting but more complex process. You probably have seen these videos:

:Niranjan.

cliveh · Jan 30, 2022

scopa said:
I've been reading through Christopher James' excellent book on Alternative Processes and came across the chapter on Athenatypes. Next step was sourcing the chemicals but I've found it almost impossible to find someone who is willing to supply me with Guanidine Carbonate.

Having had my fingers burnt, when I purchased a chemical based upon its CAS number, I thought it might be a good idea to check with the collective wisdom on this forum if this https://apcpure.com/product/guanidi...LB2nZeGVvRy4Iza9ITjxQKWnyhmT7GW8aAtxEEALw_wcB is the same as Guanidine Carbonate? It has the same CAS number and the molecular formula agrees with the one shown on some other websites.

When I saw this post, I thought what the hell is an Athenatype? I have this book and it makes no reference to an Athenatype. Do you mean a Anthotype?

nmp · Jan 30, 2022

cliveh said:
When I saw this post, I thought what the hell is an Athenatype? I have this book and it makes no reference to an Athenatype. Do you mean a Anthotype?

It's an ancient Greek process.....

cliveh · Jan 30, 2022

Both those videos are complete bullshit.

scopa · Jan 31, 2022

cliveh said:
When I saw this post, I thought what the hell is an Athenatype? I have this book and it makes no reference to an Athenatype. Do you mean a Anthotype?

Nope. Athenatype. Chapter 15 in the 3rd Edition.

scopa · Jan 31, 2022

nmp said:
Just to make sure, may be you can get the most definitive answer from DIck Sullivan (of B&S fame) who invented the process in the first place.

Good advice. I'll see if he replies to my email (sadly he never has in the past)

nmp said:
Good luck...it looks like an interesting but more complex process. You probably have seen these videos

Thanks for the vidoes. I have seen them before but it's always useful to have links gathered in one location for future reference

scopa · Jan 31, 2022

cliveh said:
Both those videos are complete bullshit.

An interesting reaction. Why do you say that?

cliveh · Jan 31, 2022

scopa said:
An interesting reaction. Why do you say that?

Because of the chemicals they are using for this process. But maybe I am wrong and it is some new process I am completely unaware of. Actually, after looking at this in more detail, I think it is another version of van dyke brown.

cliveh · Jan 31, 2022

I suppose my point is that you can take any photographic process and vary the formula a trillion ways and call it another name. In my mind the Athenatype is not reinventing the wheel.

scopa · Feb 5, 2022

cliveh said:
I suppose my point is that you can take any photographic process and vary the formula a trillion ways and call it another name. In my mind the Athenatype is not reinventing the wheel.

To quote Christopher James: "In short, the Athenatype was a variant of the brownprint process, but unlike the brownprint or Van Dyke, and more like the kallitype, it achieved its color variations through toning."
In addition to this I would also like to point out that Athenatype can be either a DOP or POP processes.

cliveh · Feb 6, 2022

My point is that an Athenatype is not a new process, but a hybrid of existing process techniques. The videos seem to claim something new, giving it a name of Athenatype when it does not warrent a new name, as they are just adapting an existing process and expanding on it.

scopa · Feb 7, 2022

cliveh said:
My point is that an Athenatype is not a new process, but a hybrid of existing process techniques. The videos seem to claim something new, giving it a name of Athenatype when it does not warrent a new name, as they are just adapting an existing process and expanding on it.

Christopher James seems to regard it as a new process and, like I said earlier, devotes an entire chapter to it. You do not and your opinion is equally valid. I do not have an opinion either way. But, getting this thread back on track, my question is about finding a source for Guanidine Carbonate so I can try the process out.

cliveh · Feb 8, 2022

Christopher James is not an expert on alternative processes, but someone who compiles information about them to sell books.

scopa · Feb 12, 2022

cliveh said:
Christopher James is not an expert on alternative processes, but someone who compiles information about them to sell books.

I can't help but feel that you are doing him a disservice. Especially as he "is presently University Professor and Director of the MFA in Photography program at Lesley University College of Art and Design" where, judging by the prints in his book, he has a great deal of knowledge across many processes. To me he certainly looks like an expert although your criteria for that may be much narrower.

cliveh · Feb 12, 2022

scopa said:
I can't help but feel that you are doing him a disservice. Especially as he "is presently University Professor and Director of the MFA in Photography program at Lesley University College of Art and Design" where, judging by the prints in his book, he has a great deal of knowledge across many processes. To me he certainly looks like an expert although your criteria for that may be much narrower.

No, as a Professor at Lesley University College of Art and Design he has many students on tap and others who make experiments into a variety of alternative processes, the notes of which he makes into a book on multiple process techniques. Fox Talbot spent most of his adult life experimenting with two or three processes. I would suggest that unless Christopher James is several thousand years old, his own experimentation is limited to very few. But if you compile a book from notes of others, it makes you look far more experienced in alternative processes that you actually are.

MattKing · Feb 12, 2022

cliveh said:
No, as a Professor at Lesley University College of Art and Design he has many students on tap and others who make experiments into a variety of alternative processes, the notes of which he makes into a book on multiple process techniques. Fox Talbot spent most of his adult life experimenting with two or three processes. I would suggest that unless Christopher James is several thousand years old, his own experimentation is limited to very few. But if you compile a book from notes of others, it makes you look far more experienced in alternative processes that you actually are.

Sounds like most of the Kodak and Ilford technical publications - that rely on the efforts of their employees.

scopa · Feb 13, 2022

cliveh said:
No, as a Professor at Lesley University College of Art and Design he has many students on tap and others who make experiments into a variety of alternative processes, the notes of which he makes into a book on multiple process techniques. Fox Talbot spent most of his adult life experimenting with two or three processes. I would suggest that unless Christopher James is several thousand years old, his own experimentation is limited to very few. But if you compile a book from notes of others, it makes you look far more experienced in alternative processes that you actually are.

OK, but to achieve that position he has had to demonstrate extensive knowledge in his subjects. His students are "on tap" because they have signed ontohis course. He also has the advantage of building on established historical research by Fox Talbot and other pioneers.

cliveh · Feb 13, 2022

Agreed, but getting back to the Athenatype, it is not a new process, but a hybrid. However, it will fill another chapter of another Christopher James book. Do you get my drift?

scopa · Feb 14, 2022

cliveh said:
Agreed, but getting back to the Athenatype, it is not a new process, but a hybrid. However, it will fill another chapter of another Christopher James book. Do you get my drift?

Indeed I do

Athenatype chemistry

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