Asking Ilford to publish expired date of paper

Ian Grant · Feb 14, 2009

MattKing said:
I'd suggest that they just change the packaging every few years. Oh, and they should encourage dealers to sell older stock at the (Most likely lower) prices in effect when the stock was new.

Matt

I think you'll find that often they have, but not necessarily for the reasons you suggest. Most of the Ilford products until more recent years changed because of the product cycle Selo Hypersentive, HP3, HP4, HP5, HP+ same with FP4 and also the papers.

Packaging also changed as advertising, marketing & branding (pacaking) evolves, current papers may look the same but now packages say manufactured by Harman Technology, so there are plenty of indications to show when stock is old.

Common sense has to be used, date stamps don't stop retailers selling badly stored but in date colour films, the notorious tourist kiosks etc selling film displayed in bright sunlight with fading boxes are just one example.

Any shop selling old stock is effectively saying they aren't interested in selling the products, they know the stock is old and are deceiving potential customers. If they have this attitude they don't deserve their customers and they bwill lose potential sales to a competitor, probably with an online presence.

The Matt Wells has summed up dealers responsibilities to their customers above.

Ian

AgX · Feb 14, 2009

Matt5791 said:
After all contractual relations exist between the consumer and the retailer, not the consumer and the manufacturer. In the UK there is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and (as a Law graduate) I know most of the rest of the world modeled their sale of goods legislation on the original incarnation of this Act of 1893. Under S14 there are a whole host of implied terms as to quality into any contract for Goods. Under S14(2) Goods must be of satisfactory quaity. S14(3) stipulates goods must be fit for purpose etc etc.

If there is a problem take it back for replacement. It's then the retailers responsibility to take the issue up with the manufacturer and do whatever they want to do.

Putting a date of some kind on the box would not change that contractual relation.

Chazzy · Feb 14, 2009

I gather that it is much easier to return goods to the store for a refund after 30 days in the UK and Europe. Here it would only seldom be permitted.

fotch · Feb 14, 2009

To each their own. For me, I would rather avoid bad product, returns, and pay the cost to get quality product. It may get old in my possession but I surely don't want to buy it already old. As someone already said, quite often at current price which adds insult to injury. Let the retailer mark down the old stock to get it moving.

Note! I have owned retail stores and wholesale operations, and while not wanting to take less profit or even a loss, it is just what goes with the territory. Dated good or out of date goods just are worth less money.

It would be interesting to do a poll.

AgX · Mar 14, 2009

It is possible...

Maco just announced that they will

-) state the date of delivery from the manufacturer

-) three expiry dates (for three different storing temperatures)

for their Rollei Vintage papers (Foma?)

for Ilford paper sold via them

(As those papers most probably will only be sold by them directly there of course will not be that dealer turn-around `problem´.)

cmacd123 · Mar 15, 2009

1) I have enough grey hairs to rember that Kodak paper came with expiry dates.
2) the viability of paper is more with storage and handling than with age.
3) even if the shop does not accept returns on paper, they would be on the hock in many places if the goods were not fit for the purpose they sold them for, (example someone selling a dead battery)
4) I would like to see a manufacture date on the package. (ie 0309 or mayby 0913 with a explanation on the web site. the dealers could use this to rotate their stock.
5) since Turkey is a "warm" country it is posible that the stock may be in fact recent but heat fogged.
6) Some computer equipment comes with a "tilt-tab" sticker that changes colour if the box was dropped. perhaps some clever Photo folks could come up with a sticker for the outside of the box which would change colour depending on the time and temperature the paper was stored. this would let the copnsumer know if the product was likly to be useable.

Excalibur2 · Mar 16, 2009

Well after reading this thread and am not sure if this has been mentioned......but I can't see why say Iford couldn't at least put a code (barcode?) on the pack, so any dispute with a dealer about very old stock can get the information on when it was made, from the code, from Ilford.
Anything that can deteriorate, surely someone should know something about their own product they are producing.

wogster · Mar 16, 2009

Excalibur2 said:
Well after reading this thread and am not sure if this has been mentioned......but I can't see why say Iford couldn't at least put a code (barcode?) on the pack, so any dispute with a dealer about very old stock can get the information on when it was made, from the code, from Ilford.
Anything that can deteriorate, surely someone should know something about their own product they are producing.

I think your asking for something that already exists. IIRC, I don't have any paper boxes around at the moment, there is an emulsion number printed on the label of the box, and Ilford would have records of when that batch was made, when it was coated, etc. These records are likely kept for a long time, possibly even permanently. I would not be surprised if you found an emulsion number from the 1950's that they wouldn't still have the information on file.

So if you buy a suspect box from an Ilford dealer and the dealer gives you grief when you try to return it, then email Ilford's customer service, include all the numbers on the box, and see what they can do to help.

Distagon · Apr 6, 2009

AgX said:
It is possible...

Maco just announced that they will

-) state the date of delivery from the manufacturer

-) three expiry dates (for three different storing temperatures)

for their Rollei Vintage papers (Foma?)

for Ilford paper sold via them

Thanks for that information! Indeed excellent news. Looks like at least this company is listen to the customers.

railwayman3 · Apr 6, 2009

Distagon said:
Thanks for that information! Indeed excellent news. Looks like at least this company is listen to the customers.

That's good, and all credit to Maco. No doubt they can do this as a reputable company, receiving fresh stock from the manufacturers and storing it in proper conditions.
Nevertheless, I can't see Ilford (or any other manufacturer) being able to do the datemarking, as, once the paper is out of their hands, they have no control over the storage conditions.

L Gebhardt · Apr 6, 2009

I have some Kodak Polymax Fine Art that suposedly expired in 2006. I have heard horror stories of this paper not even reaching it's expiration date. Mine is still perfectly good. It has been kept cool, or in the freezer.

I also have a 10 pack of 16x20 Ilford FB that I estimate must be from the mid 80's. I've been assuming it must be bad for years. Last week I opened it and cut one sheet up. It still looks very good. No fog and still has contrast. Not sure if it's as good as fresh but I saw no issues with it on the two test prints I made. Again kept cool, but not frozen for this.

So I think an expiration date can result in a lot of wasted paper if dealers just return it when it's supposedly expired.

AgX · Apr 7, 2009

The idea is not to send it back but to sell it before it expires.

tim_walls · Apr 7, 2009

AgX said:
The idea is not to send it back but to sell it before it expires.

And what if noone buys it? Should you hit people over the head with it until they do?

Printing three different expiry dates sounds great 'n all, but realistically if you go into the shop you will buy the paper with the longest expiry. You certainly won't buy the paper even if it says it's well in date for the "if well kept" expiry date if it's out of date on the "if badly kept" expiry, and doubtless anyone who receives the paper that's out of date or short dated on *any* of the three dates will be returning it in a huff demanding they want 'fresh'.

Of course it's easy to listen to your customers if you don't have many to begin with. Companies like Ilford or Kodak with rather more stakeholders in the form of a dealer network to deal with might reasonably be expected to have different considerations, and therefore might reasonably be expected to come to different conclusions about how to run their business.

Tom Stanworth · Apr 7, 2009

I have printed on 5 year old Ilford RC cooltone and it looked good as new. I printed on 4 year old Agfa MCC, which supposedly had a short shelf life and I could not tell it from new either. Generally its a non issue unless the paper is cooked in high temperatures.

wogster · Apr 7, 2009

tim_walls said:
And what if noone buys it? Should you hit people over the head with it until they do?

Printing three different expiry dates sounds great 'n all, but realistically if you go into the shop you will buy the paper with the longest expiry. You certainly won't buy the paper even if it says it's well in date for the "if well kept" expiry date if it's out of date on the "if badly kept" expiry, and doubtless anyone who receives the paper that's out of date or short dated on *any* of the three dates will be returning it in a huff demanding they want 'fresh'.

Of course it's easy to listen to your customers if you don't have many to begin with. Companies like Ilford or Kodak with rather more stakeholders in the form of a dealer network to deal with might reasonably be expected to have different considerations, and therefore might reasonably be expected to come to different conclusions about how to run their business.

I think a better option then an expiry date, would be a manufacturing date, and shipping cartons that have a label encouraging that dealers rotate their stock and that the material must be stored at a temperature below 4℃/40℉. When a paper starts getting away from the manufacturing date the dealer can mark it down to try and clear it out. If you can buy one box from the fridge that was manufactured in 2008 for $30, or a box manufactured in 2007 for $20, some people will take the newer paper, the majority here will take the older paper and buy a couple of extra rolls of film with the left over $10.

This isn't rocket science, so why make it complicated.

pelerin · Apr 7, 2009

wogster said:
I think a better option then an expiry date, would be a manufacturing date, and shipping cartons that have a label encouraging that dealers rotate their stock and that the material must be stored at a temperature below 4℃/40℉. When a paper starts getting away from the manufacturing date the dealer can mark it down to try and clear it out. If you can buy one box from the fridge that was manufactured in 2008 for $30, or a box manufactured in 2007 for $20, some people will take the newer paper, the majority here will take the older paper and buy a couple of extra rolls of film with the left over $10.

Hey,
Where in North America can you purchase B+W paper that has been held in refrigerated storage at the dealership?

Celac

wogster · Apr 8, 2009

pelerin said:
Hey,
Where in North America can you purchase B+W paper that has been held in refrigerated storage at the dealership?

Celac

I don't know, but maybe it should be, if we are looking for solutions to people buying paper beyond it's prime, the only real reason for having an expiry date on it. It's probably better for companies like Ilford to put on the box that the materials must be stored at refrigerated temperatures. I work for a courier company, and see stuff labelled with storage temperature recommendations and "dealer - rotate your stock" all the time. For those that do not know, rotate your stock, means to pull out the older stock and put new stuff on the shelf then put the old stuff on top or in front. A manufacturing date is then helpful to know whether the shipment just received is newer or not. If I have 2 units on the shelf marked December 4, 2008 and get 2 new ones also marked December 4, 2008, then I know I can simply add these to the shelf. However if the new ones are marked January 5, 2009 I need to put them under or behind the older ones. Dates could be encoded, or use a sequence number that each day is given a larger number until you get to say day 99999 when it rolls over to 00001 (every 273 years or so).

Might be an opportunity for a distributor to offer dealers a discount on a refrigerator (a wine chiller or pop cooler type unit would work well here) with logos on it, could be self serve or behind the counter.

pelerin · Apr 8, 2009

wogster said:
I don't know, but maybe it should be, if we are looking for solutions to people buying paper beyond it's prime, the only real reason for having an expiry date on it. It's probably better for companies like Ilford to put on the box that the materials must be stored at refrigerated temperatures. I work for a courier company, and see stuff labelled with storage temperature recommendations and "dealer - rotate your stock" all the time. For those that do not know, rotate your stock, means to pull out the older stock and put new stuff on the shelf then put the old stuff on top or in front. A manufacturing date is then helpful to know whether the shipment just received is newer or not. If I have 2 units on the shelf marked December 4, 2008 and get 2 new ones also marked December 4, 2008, then I know I can simply add these to the shelf. However if the new ones are marked January 5, 2009 I need to put them under or behind the older ones. Dates could be encoded, or use a sequence number that each day is given a larger number until you get to say day 99999 when it rolls over to 00001 (every 273 years or so).

Might be an opportunity for a distributor to offer dealers a discount on a refrigerator (a wine chiller or pop cooler type unit would work well here) with logos on it, could be self serve or behind the counter.

Hi,
I think that there are a few problems with the proposition, the first being that mandating refrigerated storage for B+W materials would be a major change that runs counter to decades of recommended practice. But what if they did, a good question is, "would dealers acquiesce or would they simply drop the product line?" I suspect the great majority of dealers would simply wash their hands of the whole matter and move on.

My thinking runs like this. Where I work we carry Ilford B+W products. We stock both film and paper, and currently the only B+W product that receives regular refrigerated storage is the IR film. The rest of the stock sits either on the sales floor or in a dedicated warehouse, both of which are climate controlled year round to maintain reasonable temps. Let me assure that the stock and backstock would not fit in one of the refer units that you are referring to. I have two double door units on the floor for color paper (big enough to hold up 20x24 boxes) and the two of them would not make a sizable dent in the inventory. So, to accomplish what you suggest, I would need to drastically reduce inventory levels or convince management to invest in a wall of refrigerators to store a product who's sales state (I'm sure that you are aware) is in decline. I am reasonably sure that reducing stock levels significantly would negatively impact my ability to serve my customer base. This leaves me, ahem, "between the frying pan and the fire." What argument would I present to my boss to convince him to buy a fleet of new refrigerators?

As for stock rotation and date coding, they are already in place. Ilford does date code the stock, they simply do not do it in a way that is transparent to the end user. That does not mean though that the date code is not useful for stock control purposes. It is possible to determine from the date code which of two units was manufactured before the other and stock the product accordingly. Further, it is a matter of common sense (and good inventory control) to date the case packs as they are put into the warehouse. We use a computerized POS system that automatically generates sales volume numbers so that the inventory on hand can balanced against product flow. This process is controlled / cross checked by taking regular physical inventories (> 1/month) and common sense. Regardless of what others have posited here, it is most certainly not in the dealer's best interest to be sitting on a mountain of aging stock.
Celac

AgX · Apr 9, 2009

Having expiry date(-es) on the packages and mandatory refrigeration are different things. Moreover we are talking about worldwide sales; thus totally different climate situations.

But paper being labelled with expiry dates would mean that that there would be some pressure on the dealer to try to make some turn-around of his stock rather than ordering quite a big stock and then forget about it.

hka · Apr 9, 2009

We, the consumers of these papers, are punished for bad stock keeping from the warehouses and wholesalers.
Meaning that I must pay the bill for over 400,00 for a bad roll of paper without any guarantee.
When you go back to these guys to tell them what's wrong, I then hear always the same song.
Sorry but your storage was bad or not as recommended ??

wogster · Apr 9, 2009

pelerin said:
Hi,
I think that there are a few problems with the proposition, the first being that mandating refrigerated storage for B+W materials would be a major change that runs counter to decades of recommended practice. But what if they did, a good question is, "would dealers acquiesce or would they simply drop the product line?" I suspect the great majority of dealers would simply wash their hands of the whole matter and move on.

My thinking runs like this. Where I work we carry Ilford B+W products. We stock both film and paper, and currently the only B+W product that receives regular refrigerated storage is the IR film. The rest of the stock sits either on the sales floor or in a dedicated warehouse, both of which are climate controlled year round to maintain reasonable temps. Let me assure that the stock and backstock would not fit in one of the refer units that you are referring to. I have two double door units on the floor for color paper (big enough to hold up 20x24 boxes) and the two of them would not make a sizable dent in the inventory. So, to accomplish what you suggest, I would need to drastically reduce inventory levels or convince management to invest in a wall of refrigerators to store a product who's sales state (I'm sure that you are aware) is in decline. I am reasonably sure that reducing stock levels significantly would negatively impact my ability to serve my customer base. This leaves me, ahem, "between the frying pan and the fire." What argument would I present to my boss to convince him to buy a fleet of new refrigerators?

As for stock rotation and date coding, they are already in place. Ilford does date code the stock, they simply do not do it in a way that is transparent to the end user. That does not mean though that the date code is not useful for stock control purposes. It is possible to determine from the date code which of two units was manufactured before the other and stock the product accordingly. Further, it is a matter of common sense (and good inventory control) to date the case packs as they are put into the warehouse. We use a computerized POS system that automatically generates sales volume numbers so that the inventory on hand can balanced against product flow. This process is controlled / cross checked by taking regular physical inventories (> 1/month) and common sense. Regardless of what others have posited here, it is most certainly not in the dealer's best interest to be sitting on a mountain of aging stock.
Celac

I think it really comes down to turn over, a dealer that turns over their inventory in a few weeks or even a couple of months, there is no problem. Some small dealers are very good at making sure their stock, even if it's only 2-3 boxes is kept fairly fresh. This can be accomplished by simply ordering another box when one of the two boxes on the shelf gets sold, and only keeping the most popular one or two papers in stock. Making sure they store it away from heat sources. If someone walks in looking for something else, they place an order for what the customer wants. Easy these days when you can order a box of paper from the distributor and have it in your store within 3-4 days, it doesn't make sense to have 47 different kinds of paper.

I think that where there is a problem is that there are a few small dealers in small towns that got 5 boxes of paper in 1973, 4 of those boxes are still on the shelf over a radiator, in the window so that they have been cooking for 36 years. Of course as fewer and fewer dealers have paper, these dealers that have old paper that's been improperly stored, over a long period of time are starting to sell some of this paper.

One clue as to the age of paper or anything else, Ilford like just about everyone else freshens up their labelling occasionally. If you see an old style label on a package at a dealer, it's probably worth a pass.

Ronald Moravec · Apr 9, 2009

All would have been fine if paper were made like it used to be. Today there are chemicals in the paper so the manufacture does not need to age the emulsion before sale. They save money. The downside it continues to age very fast on the dealers shelf so the life span is 3 years. I was also told refrigeration or freezing will do but a tiny extension.

Before Ilford downsized this was all explained to me by the Ilford reps who are no longer with the company.

The big questions are how long did the paper take to get to the store. How long before they sold it to you. What is the life left when you get it.

I have some inherited 40 year old paper that works. I have some Ilford stuff 2 years old that is grey. How do I know 2 years. Marked when I got it.

Evil Kodak used to put exp dates on the paper. That`s how I know how old it is. EXP 1969.

They now date packs of Xtol. Not sure about other stuff.

If you are good observers and watch the lot numbers of what you buy, you can crack the code.

wogster · Apr 10, 2009

Ronald Moravec said:
All would have been fine if paper were made like it used to be. Today there are chemicals in the paper so the manufacture does not need to age the emulsion before sale. They save money. The downside it continues to age very fast on the dealers shelf so the life span is 3 years. I was also told refrigeration or freezing will do but a tiny extension.

Before Ilford downsized this was all explained to me by the Ilford reps who are no longer with the company.

The big questions are how long did the paper take to get to the store. How long before they sold it to you. What is the life left when you get it.

I have some inherited 40 year old paper that works. I have some Ilford stuff 2 years old that is grey. How do I know 2 years. Marked when I got it.

Evil Kodak used to put exp dates on the paper. That`s how I know how old it is. EXP 1969.

They now date packs of Xtol. Not sure about other stuff.

If you are good observers and watch the lot numbers of what you buy, you can crack the code.

I have heard in the past that the need to age emulsion before sale is an urban myth. So adding chemicals to paper to speed this up, would also be a myth. I can see why those reps. are no longer with the company.

Really, I doubt that you can buy paper that's less then 6 months from manufacture, unless you live in the same city as the factory, and the distributor is in the same city as well.

Think about it, paper is not made continuously, they coat so much of a paper, then stop making that paper and start making a different paper, when the factory supply gets to the lower inventory limit, they make another batch. I can see common papers that sell in large quantities, being made more often then papers that sell in smaller quantities.

The distributor works in a similar manner, they order papers that sell in large quantities in larger batches and because they get to the minimum inventory level faster so they order more often.

The dealer should and often does it the same way, they might order common papers on a regular basis, and go through their inventory quickly enough that the paper doesn't age that much.

I would think an 8x10 Multigrade RC paper wouldn't be that old, and you probably would go through it fairly quickly yourself.

Where the whole system falls down is a paper that isn't used that much, it sits longer in the factory, because batches are the same size, but they take longer to sell, The distributor then brings in less and it stays there longer again. The dealer might have ordered only a box or two, but they take a year to sell it. You only use a sheet or two once in a while. So the paper is much older, if it was improperly stored at some point, then it could age quite a bit.

cmacd123 · Apr 12, 2009

Ronald Moravec said:
All would have been fine if paper were made like it used to be. Today there are chemicals in the paper so the manufacture does not need to age the emulsion before sale.

I would give this one a partial right. When the Ilfospeed RC paper came out, it was "developer incorporated" so that their is a bit of developing agent in the mix. this allows for faster processing. They sold a monster processor which would give dry fixed washed prints in a couple of minutes for uses like Newspapers.

I don't know if that practice has carried on to the current products. It seems the Ilfospeed has been repleced by the multigrade.

Adding developer would actually make the paper MORE EXPENSIVE to make, but did make it faster to make a print. it MIGHT make it a bit less stable.

Asking Ilford to publish expired date of paper

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