Asking Ilford to publish expired date of paper

Dear All,

I do take issue with the 'If ILFORD will not protect the consumer' tag, we step up to our responsibilities 100%, we always have and we always will, should you purchase defective paper ( be it out of date or not ) and return it to the shop where do you think it goes back to ? . We get QC's returned to us at Mobberley that are 100% patently not due to defective manufacture, we know because we check every one, what do you think we do ?....we help, we educate and we often make a goodwill gesture though we have no liability to do so.

If we date paper more resellers will stop supplying monochrome paper, this is an indisputable fact, and the chances of finding the massive range we make ( such as FB ) in resellers will just stop, volume will reduce, products will be discontinued and prices will go up......and remember the vast majority of resellers are very very good at looking after our and other manufacturers goods.

We always adhere to best practice in the industry, our quality control is as good as any in the industry, the number of QC's we get are infintesimal compared to the volume we manufacture, your guarantee is the brand and its reputation that we have built up for 130 years. 99.98% of people who buy our products
would appear to agree, with those that do not we will ensure we deal with them in a responsible and professional manner, we always have and we always will..

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon Here in chicago,ill usa old paper is on the shelf. So I do not buy ilford-dealerwill not take it back. So Freestyle is the way to go. BS IS BS.

R W Penn said:

Simon Here in chicago,ill usa old paper is on the shelf. So I do not buy ilford-dealerwill not take it back. So Freestyle is the way to go. BS IS BS.

Click to expand...

I have to agree - same is true here in SE Michigan.

I think that we need to face up to the fact that analogue materials have now become a niche product and that we will have to make a little effort and buy them from the specialist, and particularly, mail order suppliers.
With the exception, perhaps, of a few pro dealers in the major cities, the time has passed when our local little photo shop can be expected to carry a full range of items, all in fresh condition, just for our casual purchase.

It's happened with many more much less specialist goods....I bought some house paint last week from B&Q (large DIY "warehouse" for those not in the UK). A vast range of colors, finishes and sizes of pot, far more than any small shop could ever hold in stock, and obviously all available there-and-then without ordering. And a money-back guarantee if anything isn't right.

As to date-marking, it won't stop the less organised or less scrupulous dealer from selling out-of-date materials....I can remember returning a batch of six-month out-of-date Ektachrome to a (small) photo shop some 12 or 15 years ago, and even then being told "oh, it will be alright" (I did get a grudgingly-made refund!).

I have total confidence that Ilford, and also Kodak, will stand by their products, and can't recall any problems with fresh materials. Nevertheless, I would always test the first roll of film from a batch before I used it for a once-in-a-lifetime holiday or subject. Just common sense.

R W Penn said:

Simon Here in chicago,ill usa old paper is on the shelf. So I do not buy ilford-dealerwill not take it back. So Freestyle is the way to go. BS IS BS.

Click to expand...

In the UK any retailer must, by law, supply goods "fit for purpose", and, at very least, replace or refund if they are not. (And, of course, could be liable for consequential loss or damages).
I thought that the US was even more severe in customer protection and product liability issues?

There is such a thing as 'acceptance' here in the US too, and you have a right to inspect the goods, and they have to be reasonably fit for the purpose, or you will have the law on your side when you ask for a replacement. Any dealer that doesn't live up to that is on the wrong side of the law.

If you stop buying from the retail stores that have the paper - guess what's going to happen. They will stop carrying it. Then what do you do in an emergency and can't wait a week for it to arrive at your door step? I support the local chain that carries Ilford products, by buying some of my film there (Neopan 400, Tri-X, Delta 3200), Selenium toner (Kodak), paper developer (Ilford MG), fixer (Ilford Hypam, I wish they'd do a better job in stocking this, though), and paper (Ilford MGIV standard and warm tone). This way I help to insure that their stock is fresh. It is a little bit more expensive, but it's convenient and I don't have to pay for shipping.

- Thomas

I agree, Thomas, we should support local stores where possible, and clearly your local chain carries the products that you need in fresh condition, which is excellent....any dealer who can do this deserves support.
Hopefully, these good ones will stay in business, but there is little point in trying to subsidise the ones which don't look after their customers, waste our time and money, and perhaps damage the reputations of good manufacturers by selling expired goods.
As to emergencies when you can't wait a week for delivery, I guess that's a problem with any specialist hobby or business. I've worked with a business who had to use imported supplies with 2-3 weeks
delivery after the order...they had no option but to plan ahead to hold stocks sufficient for all eventualities.

Simon R Galley said:

Dear All,

I do take issue with the 'If ILFORD will not protect the consumer' tag, we step up to our responsibilities 100%, we always have and we always will, should you purchase defective paper ( be it out of date or not ) and return it to the shop where do you think it goes back to ? . We get QC's returned to us at Mobberley that are 100% patently not due to defective manufacture, we know because we check every one, what do you think we do ?....we help, we educate and we often make a goodwill gesture though we have no liability to do so.

If we date paper more resellers will stop supplying monochrome paper, this is an indisputable fact, and the chances of finding the massive range we make ( such as FB ) in resellers will just stop, volume will reduce, products will be discontinued and prices will go up......and remember the vast majority of resellers are very very good at looking after our and other manufacturers goods.

We always adhere to best practice in the industry, our quality control is as good as any in the industry, the number of QC's we get are infintesimal compared to the volume we manufacture, your guarantee is the brand and its reputation that we have built up for 130 years. 99.98% of people who buy our products
would appear to agree, with those that do not we will ensure we deal with them in a responsible and professional manner, we always have and we always will..

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Click to expand...

Interesting position. So, if I have what I think is outdated paper, I will need to drive approx. 1 hour round trip to the dealer, and maybe argue that he refunds my money or replace with fresh paper. Or, if mail order, send back at my expense. This is compound by the fact that a lot of us may order paper to have on hand before we are completely out. So, maybe this all takes place several months after purchase.

If it should not be sold after a certain date then it needs a sell by date on the package. I understand your view of the market problem and think you need to find a better way to solve it. I have always purchase Ilford and Kodak products because I want quality, if its a gamble, I might as well buy by price rather than Brand. JMHO

Simon is right.

It will drive small/local retailers away from carrying date-stamped product in today's slow moving digital prevailing market.
If there is no small/local retailers Ilford won't sell as many products.
Then the price of papers will increase and type of paper will decrease.
Then you won't buy as many from B&H or Freestyle, even fresh.
Then Ilford will stop manufacturing papers.
Then you won't even find expired papers.
Then you may end up getting inkjet papers
without date stamps .

I guess I have a different feeiling about all this. I'm a bit of a late comer to b&w, just started about a year ago. The paper and film my local lab offered was much more expensive than Freestyle/B&H et al even after figuring in shipping. I never supported them. Why bother, what good would it do me? I did end up buying a bunch of stuff from the lab, but it was at their going out of business sale, and reasonably priced.

Being a bargain aficionado I often buy "previously owned" paper. I've had Luminous graded fiber paper from 1968 still produce a good print as well as a box of *undated* agfa that works well. Some later luminous was fogged beyond usability. I also have a bunch of Ilford paper, mostly expired and only one box shoes ang age fogging so far. Being new I think I have less of a preference for any one product. Excitement about printing an the desire to spit out more work while learning definitely puts a precedent on price.

As for whomever said Polycontrast dies fast after it's exp date, I have not found that to be the case. I've had decent results with Polycontrast III recently. I think Polymax had more developer incorporated and maybe that what you're thinking of? Or perhaps I'm just lucky, like my enlarger!

Simon R Galley said:

Dear All,

I do take issue with the 'If ILFORD will not protect the consumer' tag, we step up to our responsibilities 100%, we always have and we always will, should you purchase defective paper ( be it out of date or not ) and return it to the shop where do you think it goes back to ? . We get QC's returned to us at Mobberley that are 100% patently not due to defective manufacture, we know because we check every one, what do you think we do ?....we help, we educate and we often make a goodwill gesture though we have no liability to do so.

If we date paper more resellers will stop supplying monochrome paper, this is an indisputable fact, and the chances of finding the massive range we make ( such as FB ) in resellers will just stop, volume will reduce, products will be discontinued and prices will go up......and remember the vast majority of resellers are very very good at looking after our and other manufacturers goods.

We always adhere to best practice in the industry, our quality control is as good as any in the industry, the number of QC's we get are infintesimal compared to the volume we manufacture, your guarantee is the brand and its reputation that we have built up for 130 years. 99.98% of people who buy our products
would appear to agree, with those that do not we will ensure we deal with them in a responsible and professional manner, we always have and we always will..

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Click to expand...

That's about what I expected you to say. I don't know how things work in England, but in the United States many shops do not greet product returns with enthusiasm, and the likely result will be an argument about who was at fault, with the store attempting to put the blame either on the manufacturer or on bad practice by the user. It simply isn't worth the trouble. So if you won't put a plain English date on the paper, I simply won't buy it from small shops with low turnover. They, in turn, will be encouraged to stop carrying paper altogether. If you want to encourage consumers to buy from large Internet retailers instead of local shops, just keep doing what you're doing and leave the consumer unable to determine whether the paper is outdated or not.

First of all, how rampant is this out of date paper? Even with the decline in film use I am sure that it is not as bad as reading this thread. I have never had a paper go bad, but have had some film that was bad. I called my dealer, explained that the film had a flaw. gave my order number and they then shipped fresh replacement without further question. I am quite sure the response would be the same if I ordered any defective paper. Any shop that does not take back defective product does not deserve your business. Vote with your dollars. Tell them "you don't stand behind what you sell I won't support you' Don't feel hostage to a company that back what it sell just because the do carry one of two film items.

Dating a package is meaningless. It is good or it is bad. If there was a date on it does, that date would not convey that information. But a date would discourage a vendor from carrying the paper at all.

IF the dealer is running the paper out of date. Then he, she or it is not merchandising the product properly.
Once that dealer has a reputation for selling OOD goods it only compounds the issue when his turnover slows down.
I worked at a retailer in Chicago that would turn over hundreds of packages of paper each month. The company had multiple locations & the larger stores turned a great deal of product, the smaller, photo finishing shops wouldn't turn jack.
Regarding dating paper, when I got into this trade in the early '70s ALL Kodak paper was dated. Including Panalure, Kodabromide & Poly!

"As for whomever said Polycontrast dies fast after it's exp date, I have not found that to be the case. I've had decent results with Polycontrast III recently. I think Polymax had more developer incorporated and maybe that what you're thinking of?"
You are probably right, it could surely have been Polymax, I can't remember.


"If it should not be sold after a certain date then it needs a sell by date on the package."
I think Ilford paper does not need a sell-by date, but it does need to be stored properly.

Dear All,

Film is dated because it has a sensitised life that we know, it deteriorates and we must ensure that people are not sold out of date film 3-5 years on average from date of manufacture and the deterioration is slow as can be proved by loads of APUG posts on people using out of date film.


Paper is about 2 to 3 iso, film varies between 25 iso and 3,200 iso : Paper correctly stored will not show any significant deterioration in 7 to 10 years hence you should have no problem, and nothing in our QC lists show that we have a problem.

As I always respond to APUG I will speak to the management regarding dating of paper and chemistry and see if they wish to look at doing this and the likely increases in costs to us of doing so.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon R Galley said:

Paper is about 2 to 3 iso, film varies between 25 iso and 3,200 iso : Paper correctly stored will not show any significant deterioration in 7 to 10 years hence you should have no problem, and nothing in our QC lists show that we have a problem.

Click to expand...

It seems to me that a significantly greater factor than 'time' is going to be how the shop stores the stuff. A shop that keeps their paper stored on the shelf above the boiler with the roof-light over it will be selling paper in poor condition even if it's 5 years before the marked 'sell by date', and a shop that keeps it in the fridge at all times is going to be selling paper in good condition probably well past the marked sell by date.


I fail to see how printing a date on the package is going to tell you whether or not your dealer takes care of their photographic materials.

If a dealer is selling materials in poor condition, the beef is with the dealer, it seems to me...

^^^I'd agree with Tim that it's largely down to how the shop stores the product, and that dating paper will make little practical difference.

It seems to me that the life of paper properly stored is considerably longer than many non-photographic products which are not dated....I'm not thinking of food, but something like the tin of housepaint I bought last week. I wouldn't keep that for 5 or 6 years, then rely on it still being in good condition when I opened it!

We're experienced photographers here on APUG, and I think we need to use some responsibility in making sure we have fresh products. Support the "good" shops, retail or mail-order, check our materials before we rely on them for the once-in-a-lifetime pictures, and complain politely but firmly if we're sold stuff in bad condition. Or, at the very least, move your custom. If the shop doesn't repond, they don't deserve to be in business....and you'll be doing a favor to the less-experienced photographer who might be thinking his/her technique is at fault.

I'd trust Ilford (and Kodak) to do their best to make sure we're all satisfied
customers, but we have to use our own common sense sometimes, they can't "hold our hands" all the time.

No doubt that Ilford really care about their customers, even a director like Simon, willing to write in this our lovely Apug.
In my first wrote I just ask to Ilford to publish the code like this: Batch 64 D October 2001
11 B May 1997
15 E September 1997
27 E September 1998
in Their website, so that no cost addition.
but I can fully understand with Simon explanations about why they cannot do that.

is that really necessary to freeze bw paper to prolong the life? I see Simon didnt said about that, only properly stored, cool and dark, is that any scientific analyzed about this? I read about this in various thread and Sexton Newsletter "......I wish I could say that the information below is all based on fact, but in actuality it's nothing more than an educated guess (kind of like the accelerated aging data on today's digital print output). Hopefully, this information will be of value to you if you're trying to preserve some of your favorite silver halide emulsions for a useful life beyond the norm.
Unused Black and White paper can be expected to gradually change in sensitometric characteristics from the time it is manufactured until it reaches expiration date -- and beyond. Storage at temperatures below room temperature can slow down these gradual changes, but not eliminate them. The following guidelines will help ensure that cold storage of paper offers the greatest benefit to sensitometric stability....."

regards
haryanto

Dear Haryanto,

It is not neccesary at all to freeze photographic paper, and for film only if you intend to store it passed its use by date : Stored in a cool dry area is all you need for paper and try not to expose to elevated teperatures for long periods.

If you DO freeze paper it will extend its life + 10 years ( ? ). If you do 2 things :

1 ) Cost : It costs to keep things cold : I know its relative if you alraedy have a freezer

2 ) Warming up : Allow 7 days for the product to get to room temperature

Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

So fast reply Simon, thanks a lot

regards haryanto

Simon Galley: Paper correctly stored will not show any significant deterioration in 7 to 10 years hence you should have no problem, and nothing in our QC lists show that we have a problem.


This is logically equivalent to saying that the absence of complaints ending up in the QC department establishes that no one---dealer, user, shipper, whatever---ever mishandles or loses track of the age of paper.

It is far more likely that, for the reasons mentioned by others, any loss of less that some hundreds of dollars is simply absorbed by the user, and serves to raise the effective cost of the product. I know for a fact that the track marks which started showing up on my box of 8x10 RC never came to the attention of Ilford QC. The defects didn't appear until about halfway through the box, and the thought of arguing the issue through B&H, along with the packing, shipping, and general hassle, just wasn't worth the effort.

This is not to say that Ilford's quality is poor; to 100% perfection in any product that you can't test before use is economically unrealistic, and Ilford probably comes a close as anyone to the ideal. But the logic of not date-marking seems flawed; if the quoted statement above is correct, all that is needed is to get the dealers to believe it (and possibly facilitate removal from the general market any product more than, say, 75% of the way through its projected life). Then printing the date, along with the lot number, would make the consumer happier and reinforce to the dealer that he was handling a perishable commodity that should be procured, stored, and marketed accordingly.

I think that the issue that rankles (for me and probably others) is that the cost of date-marking is negligible; it is not omitted as a cost savings, to there must be some other benefit so someone, and I'm pretty sure that it isn't me. It sure looks the point is to give the dealer some deniability if there is a complaint (which benefits the dealer, certainly) and possibly encourage larger volume purchases than a dealer's volume justifies (which would benefit Ilford, although only in the short term).

And at this point I think I will bow out of the discussion....

Over time, would it not make more sense that by, say, adding a date code in the present distribution and merchandising market (i.e., online sales, en masse, being a major node), paper and chemicals might appear on fewer shelves in the shops (save for the highest-volume locations), and the larger bulk of these products end up being sold through more centralized, high-volume online-only stores?

Film is sort of a different situation altogether, owing to its date code already being standard. But by adding date codes to non-film stock, it would shake out retailers whose priority for paper/chemicals sales is proportionately low, while assuring higher turnover and, ideally, fresher quality from places which do earn a huge portion of their revenue through paper and chemicals. It would probably mean that places like Freestyle, Digital Truth, Henry's, Vistek and B&H would be the go-to places for such products while many small, independent shops whose revenue stream comes from a broader spread of merchandise would bow out of the paper market.

I would think this would impede minimally, if not at all, for paper suppliers. Does this sound about right, or is there a part to the picture which I do not understand?

Thoughts?

I'd suggest that they just change the packaging every few years. Oh, and they should encourage dealers to sell older stock at the (Most likely lower) prices in effect when the stock was new.

Matt

Hrm. Changing packaging isn't really a cheap thing to do on a cyclical basis, nor is it strategically smart. Not only does brand adherence need to stay consistent (and recognisable), but designing and approving a new design is usually an integrated process across all product lines and requires enough forethought and hiring a design concern to manage all of that. Ilford products are extremely identifiable precisely because they have maintained a consistent packaging style for decades.

greybeard said:

Simon Galley: Paper correctly stored will not show any significant deterioration in 7 to 10 years hence you should have no problem, and nothing in our QC lists show that we have a problem.


This is logically equivalent to saying that the absence of complaints ending up in the QC department establishes that no one---dealer, user, shipper, whatever---ever mishandles or loses track of the age of paper.

It is far more likely that, for the reasons mentioned by others, any loss of less that some hundreds of dollars is simply absorbed by the user, and serves to raise the effective cost of the product. I know for a fact that the track marks which started showing up on my box of 8x10 RC never came to the attention of Ilford QC. The defects didn't appear until about halfway through the box, and the thought of arguing the issue through B&H, along with the packing, shipping, and general hassle, just wasn't worth the effort.

Click to expand...

To be fair that example has nothing to do with date stamping. If B&H are useless at handling a complaint then buy from someone else. Further to this - did you bring it to the attention of Simon or send them a sheet? If I had a problem with a pack of MG RC I can guarantee you it would be replaced by whoever I bought it from.

greybeard said:

This is not to say that Ilford's quality is poor; to 100% perfection in any product that you can't test before use is economically unrealistic, and Ilford probably comes a close as anyone to the ideal. But the logic of not date-marking seems flawed; if the quoted statement above is correct, all that is needed is to get the dealers to believe it (and possibly facilitate removal from the general market any product more than, say, 75% of the way through its projected life). Then printing the date, along with the lot number, would make the consumer happier and reinforce to the dealer that he was handling a perishable commodity that should be procured, stored, and marketed accordingly.

Click to expand...

I really don't think 1. The dealers need to have the fact the goods are perishable reinforced to them; and 2. It is a specialist product and the seller has a responsibility anyway to ensure their stock is correctly handled - there has to be a line drawn where the manufacturer stops holding their hand.

greybeard said:

I think that the issue that rankles (for me and probably others) is that the cost of date-marking is negligible; it is not omitted as a cost savings, to there must be some other benefit so someone, and I'm pretty sure that it isn't me. It sure looks the point is to give the dealer some deniability if there is a complaint (which benefits the dealer, certainly) and possibly encourage larger volume purchases than a dealer's volume justifies (which would benefit Ilford, although only in the short term).

And at this point I think I will bow out of the discussion....

Click to expand...

Dont agree that it gives them "some deniability" - infact the opposite is the case - with a date stamp there is a point in time where your issue or complaint could, justifiably, be simply ignored. Without a date, this point in time does not exist. You are in a stronger position.

Anyway, I don't think Ilford have anything to worry about with regard to QC. I've seen them testing the paper and it's certainly very thorough and there is a huge QC ethic at the factory - everything revolves around quality.

Personally I can see absolutley no need at all to date stamp, and I don't feel compromised as a result. This is firstly because I have not experienced any age related problems, despite having a huge stash of "second hand" paper, and secondly because this thread (and I may be wrong) I think has to be the first one on APUG with regard to Ilford or Kentmere or any other mainstream brand currently in production which suggests an age related problem with paper that would apprear, outwardly, to be current stock. And it's debatable whether the OP actuallly has an age related issue.

As I said in a previous post, there are a whole host of products which don't carry a date stamp (cement being one of them). Somewhere the line has to be drawn. There should be responsibilities in the retailer to look after their stock and ensure a good stock turn and they just dont need a date to enable them to do this.

After all contractual relations exist between the consumer and the retailer, not the consumer and the manufacturer. In the UK there is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and (as a Law graduate) I know most of the rest of the world modeled their sale of goods legislation on the original incarnation of this Act of 1893. Under S14 there are a whole host of implied terms as to quality into any contract for Goods. Under S14(2) Goods must be of satisfactory quaity. S14(3) stipulates goods must be fit for purpose etc etc.

If there is a problem take it back for replacement. It's then the retailers responsibility to take the issue up with the manufacturer and do whatever they want to do.

Crucially, not having a date actually strengthens the consumers position here: The retailer can't use a date to avoid dealing with the problem.

Matt