Asking Ilford to publish expired date of paper

haryanto · Feb 11, 2009

I have difficult time, when in my country bw products become dissapear, only 1 or 2 shop sell film and paper, and when i want to buy ilford paper there's no expired date, recently I purchased 3 roll of paper 127x30m, when I try to print it got bad fog on it, maybe if Ilford published the batch code date of productions paper BW that will help a lot when people decided to buy ilford paper to prevent from my experienced,
pardon my English

Thanks Simon,

regards
haryanto

Ian Grant · Feb 11, 2009

There was thread about this a few months ago. Ilford have said they won't do it. It's the dealers who are at fault, papers particularly Ilford have a very good shelf life. If the papers faulty it's the shop at fault so ask for your money back.

I have seen Ilford paper on a dealers shelf that's possibly 22 years old, the packaging & labels have changed since, the same dealer offered me 2002 expiry date HP5 last month, yet I bought fresh Ilford Rapid fixer from them. The same dealer had equally old Forte papers and outdated Foma films. I'd guess he's lost most of his customers by not carrying fresh stock, when I asked if I could order 40 rolls of 120 Delta 400 I was told it would take a week, but it would be HP5

Another dealer told me that most photographers in the part of Turkey where I live, buy all their B&W film & paper via the internet from the UK, Germany or US. You probably need to do the same.

Ian

haryanto · Feb 11, 2009

thanks for fast reply Ian
I think if the date of manufactured publish it will prevent dealers to sold expired stuff, that's happened to me, they said it was new

freight and tax too costly to buy directly via Internet

haryanto

Steve Smith · Feb 11, 2009

The problem with putting the date on is that if there is paper on the shelf, some which expires in 2010 and some in 2015, you are going to naturally pick the 2015 paper, leaving the older paper on the shelf.

What the shop should do is only have paper on the shelf with one date.

Steve.

brofkand · Feb 11, 2009

This is like milk in the grocery store. Although you will more than likely drink all of the milk before the earlier expiry date, you still reach all the way to the back to get the milk with the latest date.

The difference is, photographic paper is much more expensive than a gallon of milk, and the shop stands to lose a lot more if the paper has to be either thrown out or sent back because it is expired. Milk actually costs the store much, much less than what it's sold for (one of the highest profit items in a grocery store, besides razor blades), so they don't lose much if at all if it has to be poured out.

Simon R Galley · Feb 11, 2009

Dear Haryanto,

The guys are correct, its all about good stock keeping, I am really, really sorry you have had a problem but we will not put on an expirey date. You SHOULD take it back to the shop and get your money back.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

jmxphoto · Feb 11, 2009

I got this from Rod for HARMAN techsupport:
Expiration for all our B&W papers is 3 years from date of manufacture. This assumes reasonably cool and dry conditions. High heat and humidity , say in un airconditioned attics or basements could shorten this.

Having said that I printed some images on paper that expired in 2002 and it still looked good to my newbie eyes. If you want to know the exp date of your ilford paper email NA-Techsupport@harmantechnology.com and give them the batch number on the package (eg. 75A802C5). They'll email you back the exp date.

Ian Grant · Feb 11, 2009

haryanto, I'm sure you must have a consumer law similar to the UK Sale of Goods Act in your country. In the UK that means a store/shop has to sell goods that are fit for purpose. In simpler English it means your B&W paper must be in good condition and work properly, and not old and fogged which means the goods are faulty.

When I set-up a temporary darkroom later this year, in Turkey, I will negotiate with the store here and probably buy all the old Ilford & Forte paper at a very substantial discount because of it's age but only after I've tested a few sheets first, and I'll deal direct with the owner if the parent store in Istanbul.

Back in the UK I have Ilford Multigrade IV paper that's at least 10 years old and it's still fine, I also have much older Ilfospeed and Ilfospeed Multigrade which print quite well. This is the reason that Ilford don't put a date stamp, a safe shelf life in a darkroom is supposed to be about seven years in cool, dry conditions, but not all makes store as well.

As Simon says take your paper back to the shop, ask for a refund.

Ian

Chazzy · Feb 11, 2009

Apparently Ilford will do nothing to protect the consumer and would prefer that we stop patronizing local camera stores with low turnover and take our business to Internet retailers who can provide fresh stock. So be it.

Ian Grant · Feb 11, 2009

Chazzy said:
Apparently Ilford will do nothing to protect the consumer and would prefer that we stop patronizing local camera stores with low turnover and take our business to Internet retailers who can provide fresh stock. So be it.

Your totally forgetting that there is a big onus on a store owner, who is after all responsible for his stock, the normal practice is to discount items that are stuck on a shelf to encourage buyers and create a turnover.

Photo papers have never openly carried a date stamp, they shouldn't need one. Most photo chemicals aren't date stamped either they can go off as well.

A huge variety of items in all types of stores have no date stamp but poor stock control can often mean they deteriorate on a shelf, get damaged etc it's all down to good house-keeping in a store. Many stores use their own stock code on a price label to indicate when they bought an item, it's that simple.

Good stores have turnover, which is why people buy from them, if they let things slip it's their own fault that people buy elsewhere. There are plenty of shops UK, EU and even the US with good turnovers of film & paper.

Ian

Chazzy · Feb 11, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Your totally forgetting that there is a big onus on a store owner, who is after all responsible for his stock, the normal practice is to discount items that are stuck on a shelf to encourage buyers and create a turnover.

Photo papers have never openly carried a date stamp, they shouldn't need one. Most photo chemicals aren't date stamped either they can go off as well.

A huge variety of items in all types of stores have no date stamp but poor stock control can often mean they deteriorate on a shelf, get damaged etc it's all down to good house-keeping in a store. Many stores use their own stock code on a price label to indicate when they bought an item, it's that simple.

Good stores have turnover, which is why people buy from them, if they let things slip it's theur own fault that people buy elsewhere. There are plenty of shops UK, EU and even the US with good turnovers of film & paper.

Ian

Oh, I understand what the store owner is SUPPOSED to do. But the fact of the matter is that they have no incentive to keep their stock fresh if the customer is unable to tell fresh stock from dated. I see absolutely no difference between dating film and dating paper in this regard. As I said, and I think that I am amply justified, if the photo manufacturers will not start dating the paper then we should stop buying it from local retailers and buy only from online retailers with high turnover. I'm sorry to see Ilford lose this opportunity to look out for the welfare of their customers. If they were to start dating their paper and their chemicals, it would give them a competitive edge over other companies.

Matt5791 · Feb 11, 2009

Chazzy said:
Oh, I understand what the store owner is SUPPOSED to do. But the fact of the matter is that they have no incentive to keep their stock fresh if the customer is unable to tell fresh stock from dated. I see absolutely no difference between dating film and dating paper in this regard. As I said, and I think that I am amply justified, if the photo manufacturers will not start dating the paper then we should stop buying it from local retailers and buy only from online retailers with high turnover. I'm sorry to see Ilford lose this opportunity to look out for the welfare of their customers. If they were to start dating their paper and their chemicals, it would give them a competitive edge over other companies.

Paper behaves differently to film, this is why it is not date stamped and why no other manufacturer date stamps paper.

I dont think it would give them a competitive edge either because I dont think there are many people out there with the problems experienced by the Op. Infact it woudl likely do th opposite as it could put customers off buying because there was "only 8 months to run" before expiry.

Cement goes off (quite quickly) but I can't find a date on the sack I bought last week from the building yard.

As does a whole host of other products. It's just the way it is.

Best suggestion is to take the stuff back and get it replaced / refunded. Its not working right.

Matt

Ian Grant · Feb 11, 2009

Perhaps. Charles, while I don't totally disagree I still don't think it's really necessary and it adds the problem that customers will always buy the freshest boxes still leaving old stock on the shelves. I'd add that usually the first tell-tale signs of a poor photo store are in the most critical area films. Once film's outdated then it should be heavily discounted & sold quickly, usually most good stores label before and sell as short dated at a smll discount.

Personally I really don't like it when I'm offered outdated film as if it's fresh, so to be handed film with an expiry date of 2002 - Ilford HP5 or 1999 - Fortepan 400 is stretching things a little bit too far. The autumn 2008 Fompan 100 wasn't as bad so I bought 20 rolls.

Ian

trexx · Feb 11, 2009

Paper is different then film. If the paper is bad just get some fresh paper and print again, yes I know it's a PITA. Film if it is bad I can never capture that fleeting moment that may pass in front of my lens. I do not want paper that is dated. First because it is worst then meaningless. What ever date that is placed on it it will be wrong. It either has not gone bad or it has gone bad. The date on the package has no bearing on that. If there was a date dealers would not stock the paper. Some would place too much faith in the paper being good because it was in date when in fact it was bad. Others would discard just because it was out of date and yet be as good as new for many years to come. When I get paper I test it. If good I put a date on the package when opened. and tested. If it is bad ( this has never happened to me ) I would call the seller and more likely then not they would send replacement no questions and no charge ( they done that for film.)

The big point is if paper is bad; Just Reprint. Film there is sometime not second chance.

TR

greybeard · Feb 11, 2009

Photo papers have never openly carried a date stamp, they shouldn't need one.

I suppose that I am dating myself, but I can still remember the first box of paper that I purchased which did not have a date. I would think that all of the reasons which once motivated the dating of paper packages would still apply, and possibly more so because of developer incorporation which seems to make modern stock less stable.

It would seem that Ilford is following the modern business model of shifting as much of the quality control and assurance cost as possible onto the dealer, who than passes it along to the ultimate consumer; it would be nice to think that the savings are also passed along, but if that ever happens, I haven't been able to spot it.

The grocery-store comparison is not particularly apt, at least in my neighborhood. The distributors often stock the shelves according to the anticipated sales volume, and take back unsold merchandise which is near or at expiration; they move it to stores where turnover is faster and scrap it only as a last resort. If products weren't dated, they would be impossible to manage intelligently (come to think of it, that sort of describes the situation with photo paper, doesn't it?).

pelerin · Feb 11, 2009

Chazzy said:
Oh, I understand what the store owner is SUPPOSED to do. But the fact of the matter is that they have no incentive to keep their stock fresh if the customer is unable to tell fresh stock from dated.

Hmm... I have some experience in the matter and know for a fact that timely ordering and effective stock rotation are a matter of concern for bricks and mortar photo stores.

Chazzy said:
I see absolutely no difference between dating film and dating paper in this regard. As I said, and I think that I am amply justified, if the photo manufacturers will not start dating the paper then we should stop buying it from local retailers and buy only from online retailers with high turnover. I'm sorry to see Ilford lose this opportunity to look out for the welfare of their customers. If they were to start dating their paper and their chemicals, it would give them a competitive edge over other companies.

Why would the mail order dealer, who never has to face his customers, be any less likely to simply ship you outdated goods (if he is unlucky enough to have them on his shelf)?

Celac

pelerin · Feb 11, 2009

greybeard said:
Photo papers have never openly carried a date stamp, they shouldn't need one.

I suppose that I am dating myself, but I can still remember the first box of paper that I purchased which did not have a date. I would think that all of the reasons which once motivated the dating of paper packages would still apply, and possibly more so because of developer incorporation which seems to make modern stock less stable.

It would seem that Ilford is following the modern business model of shifting as much of the quality control and assurance cost as possible onto the dealer, who than passes it along to the ultimate consumer; it would be nice to think that the savings are also passed along, but if that ever happens, I haven't been able to spot it.

The grocery-store comparison is not particularly apt, at least in my neighborhood. The distributors often stock the shelves according to the anticipated sales volume, and take back unsold merchandise which is near or at expiration; they move it to stores where turnover is faster and scrap it only as a last resort. If products weren't dated, they would be impossible to manage intelligently (come to think of it, that sort of describes the situation with photo paper, doesn't it?).

Hi,
Ilford paper does have a date code. It is simply opaque to the end user (and the dealer).
Celac

Chazzy · Feb 11, 2009

pelerin said:
Hmm... I have some experience in the matter and know for a fact that timely ordering and effective stock rotation are a matter of concern for bricks and mortar photo stores.

Then they have no reason to complain about a date on the paper package.

Chazzy · Feb 11, 2009

pelerin said:
Why would the mail order dealer, who never has to face his customers, be any less likely to simply ship you outdated goods (if he is unlucky enough to have them on his shelf)?

Celac

Volume. If the manufacturer is uninterested in protecting the consumer, then the only logical thing to do is to order from the stores with the highest turnover, and in the United States Freestyle and B&H ought to meet that requirement.

pelerin · Feb 11, 2009

Chazzy said:
Then they have no reason to complain about a date on the paper package.

Hi,
What dealer is complaining about production dates being included on the package? In fact, dating the inventory upon receipt to maintain control of stock is common practice.
Celac

pelerin · Feb 11, 2009

Chazzy said:
Volume. If the manufacturer is uninterested in protecting the consumer, then the only logical thing to do is to order from the stores with the highest turnover, and in the United States Freestyle and B&H ought to meet that requirement.

Hi,
I wish you good luck here. If you believe that your local dealer lacks the common sense to manage and rotate their stock (and the ethics not to clearly label and discount old stuff) what makes you believe that high volume alone will protect you.
Celac

haryanto · Feb 11, 2009

".....As Simon says take your paper back to the shop, ask for a refund.

Ian..."

Thanks Simon and Ian I try to do that,

"...Back in the UK I have Ilford Multigrade IV paper that's at least 10 years old and it's still fine, I also have much older Ilfospeed and Ilfospeed Multigrade which print quite well. This is the reason that Ilford don't put a date stamp, a safe shelf life in a darkroom is supposed to be about seven years in cool, dry conditions, but not all makes store as well...."

me too, I have good prints Ilford MG FB older than that I recently buy, many variable can cause bad paper, I have delta 400 that expired in 2005 , still good like new one

Thanks Jmx, I've already pm Simon

In this Dig**** time, when paper and film hard to find (at least in My country), I try to stock it, i buy papers, films and chemicals whenever i have money, almost all of them is Ilford

many thanks to You all

PhotoJim · Feb 11, 2009

Paper certainly has been date coded. If I remember correctly, Kodak did this to the end, and so did Agfa. (The box of MCP I have in the basement has an expiry date on it, to be sure.)

I'e never seen a package of Ilford paper that did have a date, and I bought my first pack in the early 1980s.

Ilford paper does keep very well, but I too would feel more comfortable if, at least, the date code were published so that interested users could read it. That might be a good compromise.

Lopaka · Feb 11, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Photo papers have never openly carried a date stamp, they shouldn't need one. Most photo chemicals aren't date stamped either they can go off as well.

Ian

I have to disagree - I have some old Kodak boxes in my storeroom used for misc stuff that have expirey dates. I do not know when they stopped using dates. All EK chemistry has a manufacture date on it.

I would be happy if only Ilford would put a clear manufacture date on all papers and chems.

It should also be noted that most on-line sellers have in the fine print of their return policy that film, paper and chemistry are not returnable.

Bob

jmcd · Feb 11, 2009

"Paper certainly has been date coded. If I remember correctly, Kodak did this to the end, and so did Agfa."

I think that Kodak Polycontrast, which was a very beautiful paper, was expiration dated, and the date was very short to start with, because it was developer incorporated. When the date came up the paper was soon to go.

On the other hand, I have 16 year old Ilford and Zone VI paper that prints fine, and an almost new box of Ilford Multigrade FB that is useless, I am guessing due to extreme heat damage. By the time I had opened the bad box of Ilford, it had been at least 6 months since I bought it, so I did not return it to the store. With Ilford, proper storage results in a long shelf life, many, many years.

On the other hand, a bottle of Ilford fixer is described as having a shelf life of one year in an unopened container. In this case, it would be handy for sure to have a clearly labeled date. Instead, I buy in smaller amounts than I would otherwise, and do film clearing tests to see if the fixer looks fresh.

Asking Ilford to publish expired date of paper

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