Ascorbic Ascorbate Conversion Ratio?

[Paul Verizzo]

Having ascorbic acid and wanting to make the ascorbate, I find plenty of references about doing this but without the direct information. I.e., recipe says 20 grams ascorbate, how much acid do I use to arrive at that? And then the bicarbonate?

While I'm using spoons more and more, I prefer having the info first in grams and then converting to spoons for accuracy's sake.

Thanks, Patrick! I'm presuming you'll be the helpful expert here.

 

[gainer]

The molecular weight of ascorbic acid is 176. Sodium ascorbate is 199. 1 MW of baking soda (84 g) + 1 MW of ascorbic acid will give you 1 MW of sodium ascorbate + a bunch of CO2 when you add water. Use just enough water to dissolve the solids and let the fizzing subside before adding more water. CO2 in water is mildly acidic. Warming will speed it up just as with a soft drink. So, 176 grams ascorbic acid + 84 grams bicarb in water gives 199 grams of sodium ascorbate. Scale it down for your needs and don't forget to let the CO2 escape.

Sodium hydroxide, MW = 40, will work without letting off CO2. I can't get that locally anymore. If you have some, use 40 grams NaOH instead of the bicarb.

 

[Aurum]

I'm surprised you can't get Caustic Soda locally. I get mine from DIY stores in 1lb bottles (500g) as pearl.
Its sold as drain cleaner. UK prices at B&Q, about £3.

Industrial prices (bulk buy) about 25p/Kg in 25Kg (50lb) plastic sacks!

 

[dancqu]

1 MW of baking soda (84 g) + 1 MW of ascorbic acid
will give you 1 MW of sodium ascorbate + a bunch of
CO2 when you add water.

I know the bicarbonate is easily available but so is
the carbonate. Off hand I see no reason the
carbonate would not work. Dan

 

[Paul Verizzo]

The molecular weight of ascorbic acid is 176. Sodium ascorbate is 199. 1 MW of baking soda (84 g) + 1 MW of ascorbic acid will give you 1 MW of sodium ascorbate + a bunch of CO2 when you add water. Use just enough water to dissolve the solids and let the fizzing subside before adding more water. CO2 in water is mildly acidic. Warming will speed it up just as with a soft drink. So, 176 grams ascorbic acid + 84 grams bicarb in water gives 199 grams of sodium ascorbate. Scale it down for your needs and don't forget to let the CO2 escape.

Sodium hydroxide, MW = 40, will work without letting off CO2. I can't get that locally anymore. If you have some, use 40 grams NaOH instead of the bicarb.

Thanks, Gadget. I knew you would get me straightened out.

I wanted to use bicarb because it's the most often used agent and there is more margin of error.

Several months ago I discovered that the Red Devil Lye no longer exists, having been of of the market for two years. I did find at an Ace hardware a pound of lye drain cleaner under another brand for less than $5 recently. But in between I bought 2 lbs of Roebic drain cleaner at Lowe's for $7.

 

[srs5694]

I'm surprised you can't get Caustic Soda locally. I get mine from DIY stores in 1lb bottles (500g) as pearl.
Its sold as drain cleaner.

The trouble is that sodium hydroxide (aka lye, aka caustic soda) is a principal ingredient in the manufacture of methamphetamines (aka meth). Meth abuse has been on the rise in the US for several years. Given the proper ingredients, it's fairly easy to make, so there have been efforts to get those raw ingredients off of store shelves. One of the ingredients is pseudoephedrine, which is used in several over-the-counter decongestants, so many US state and even Federal laws now restrict sale of these products. They can still be bought, but only in limited quantities. I don't know offhand if there are specific laws restricting sale of sodium hydroxide or if manufacturers have just quietly agreed to remove pure sodium hydroxide from the market in favor of products that contain sodium hydroxide in combination with other ingredients so as to make the product useless for meth manufacturer (and, coincidentally, the manufacture of certain photochemicals). These restrictions have followed the geographic spread of meth abuse -- it began in western states and slowly moved east. I live in Rhode Island, and I was able to buy a bottle of pure sodium hydroxide drain cleaner about three years ago, at a time when the same product was reportedly impossible to obtain in states west of the Mississippi River. I haven't seen that product on store shelves here recently.

Fortunately, US mail-order sources such as Photographer's Formulary and the Chemistry Store still sell it. Both these sites require extra paperwork, though (a Drug Enforcement Agency form for PF and a hazmat form for TCS).

 

[gainer]

I know how to make lye from slaked lime and soda ash, but for most things I have learned to do without. Carbonate would also work. You would still get the emission of CO2. Those developers I make by the dreaded spoonful use only Metol or Phenidone, ascorbic acid and carbonate. The same solution could also be made with Metol or Phenidone, sodium ascorbate and a carbonate.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sodium Hydroxide is prohibited in many areas of the US. For example, it is forbidden to posess it in NYC. IIRC, when I taught my workshop there, they had trouble getting it for this reason.

PE

 

[Paul Verizzo]

I think lye is yet another victim of irrational regulations in some places and just plain old not enough profit. As the years go by, "basic" chemicals and products keep disapperaring. Stoddard solvent, kerosene at the pump, lye....

As I said above, still available easily at Lowe's and Ace. And any place selling soap making supplies.

 

[Aurum]

Sodium Hydroxide is prohibited in many areas of the US. For example, it is forbidden to posess it in NYC. IIRC, when I taught my workshop there, they had trouble getting it for this reason.

PE

I don't dispute your local knowledge for a second but that is so DUMB! Its a basic (in more than one sense of the word) industrial chemical, used in so many parts of the chemical industry for pretty much everything involving a pH over 7.

Its what you get for allowing lawyers into the policy making arms of government.

Just as well I don't live in NYC, as I have a range of chemicals in my garage for all legitmate (and rather boring household uses) that would get me locked up

 

[Photo Engineer]

This law was passed in the 30s IIRC, due to the blinding of a Broadway starlet in a lye throwing incident that took place in public. It is not a modern law in NYC, but they do set limits just about everywhere on the maximum concentration of Sulfuric Acid, Nitric Acid, Hydrochloric Acid and other things that can be sold to mere mortals.

Even a competent chemist cannot get them as a private citizen. I used to have to make my own concentrated sulfuric acid, which is easy to do, by using an old fashioned retort.

PE

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

You can buy sodium hydroxide off the shelf at B&H now when they have it in stock. I make a point of doing so to avoid the hazmat shipping charges. It comes from Photographer's Formulary.

 

[Photo Engineer]

That is interesting David. I got my story from Patty at CFAAHP when she was trying to set up the workshop. She could not buy it and had to have it shipped in.

PE

 

[gainer]

I forgot why I used bicarb in the first place. The carbonate has many states of crystallization containing different percentages of water. IIRC, the bicarbonate has no water, which makes open loop use a bit more certain.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I know how to make lye from slaked lime and soda ash, but for most things I have learned to do without.

Pat, please tell me how to make sodium hydroxide out of slacked lime. Have you figured out how to transmute calcium into sodium?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

That is interesting David. I got my story from Patty at CFAAHP when she was trying to set up the workshop. She could not buy it and had to have it shipped in.

PE

B&H seems to be carrying more and more Formulary products lately. They may not have had it when you were doing the workshop. I think Patty used to order things usually from City Chemicals, which I think is based in Connecticut.

 

[dancqu]

Pat, please tell me how to make sodium hydroxide out
of slacked lime. Have you figured out how to transmute
calcium into sodium?

From my readings years ago; an ancient, Roman method
for producing lye from slacked lime and sodium carbonate.
Lye for making soap. Soap, another Roman invention?
I'll leave the details to Mr. Gainer. Dan

 

[Photo Engineer]

http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/lime/

PE

 

[Kirk Keyes]

OK - just double checking. I was not sure if he was using the "and" between slacked lime and soda ash to mean from the combination of the two or from each individually.

I just buy it from Artcraft or The Formulary. That way I at least know I'm getting high purity NaOH.

 

[gainer]

Pat, please tell me how to make sodium hydroxide out of slacked lime. Have you figured out how to transmute calcium into sodium?

See "Caveman Chemistry" by Kevin M. Dunn.

Ca(OH)2 + Na2CO3 => CaCO3 + 2NaOH. The calcium carbonate precipitates in basic solution. It's the devil to filter, but most of the clear liquid can be siphoned off. You know the 2 MW of NaOH will be dissolved in the water you put in, and the clear solution will be of that concentration even though you waste some in the precipitate.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Yes, my mistake. I misunderstood your statement.

 

[gainer]

It happens. My first branch head at NACA criticized my report writing: "I understand all your words. It's your sentences I have trouble with." Sentences in technical reports should be short and to the point. They should not be long and to many points. I should have given all the ingredients in the first post. If I had said I know how to make lye out of slaked lime and washing soda, I'm sure you would not have misunderstood. Considering that meth makers surely know the old formulas, it's a wonder we can still buy lime for our gardens and washing soda for swimming pools and washing machines.

 

[Roger Walker]

The trouble is that sodium hydroxide (aka lye, aka caustic soda) is a principal ingredient in the manufacture of methamphetamines (aka meth). Meth abuse has been on the rise in the US for several years. Given the proper ingredients, it's fairly easy to make, so there have been efforts to get those raw ingredients off of store shelves. One of the ingredients is pseudoephedrine, which is used in several over-the-counter decongestants, so many US state and even Federal laws now restrict sale of these products. They can still be bought, but only in limited quantities. I don't know offhand if there are specific laws restricting sale of sodium hydroxide or if manufacturers have just quietly agreed to remove pure sodium hydroxide from the market in favor of products that contain sodium hydroxide in combination with other ingredients so as to make the product useless for meth manufacturer (and, coincidentally, the manufacture of certain photochemicals). These restrictions have followed the geographic spread of meth abuse -- it began in western states and slowly moved east. I live in Rhode Island, and I was able to buy a bottle of pure sodium hydroxide drain cleaner about three years ago, at a time when the same product was reportedly impossible to obtain in states west of the Mississippi River. I haven't seen that product on store shelves here recently.

Fortunately, US mail-order sources such as Photographer's Formulary and the Chemistry Store still sell it. Both these sites require extra paperwork, though (a Drug Enforcement Agency form for PF and a hazmat form for TCS).

Wow! What a great history lesson. I’m 76 and had no idea about this, except for the decongestant. I guess I don’t get around enough or around the shady crowds.

 

[ruilourosa]

One question: will the ascorbate solution keep well?
thanks

 

[nmp]

One question: will the ascorbate solution keep well?
thanks

Mine goes yellow after a few days - oxidized I suppose. Refrigerated should last longer. But otherwise good to prepare fresh to maximize its reducing capacity.

:Niranjan.