Ascorbate paper developer

gainer · Nov 23, 2004

Triethanolamine (TEA) is an organic base. Without water, it does not ionize appreciably and so developing agents dissolved in it do not oxidize. You can make a developer concentrate with pyrogallol or catechol dissolved in TEA that only needs water to make it work. You can add a little metol or phenidone to the stock to make it more active, and a tiny bit of sulfite added to the working solution will make it more active yet. If you are looking for a staining developer, too much sulfite will defeat your purpose.

I think the Fruit Fresh has too much other stuff in it. Better get ascorbic acid.

psvensson · Nov 23, 2004

dancqu said:
"... sulfite is not the only accelerant" So, without the sulfite it must
be the TEA that makes it go.

Yep. 20ml TEA to a liter of water is the same amount as PC-TEA 1:50.

dancqu said:
Those "contrast" numbers look to me like maximum negative "densities"

Yes, that's Zone VIII density minus Zone I density.

dancqu said:
You've a densitometer but no ph meter?

I think most photographers would get a densitometer before a pH meter. As it happens I don't even have a densitometer - I improvise with a light meter. Accuracy is probably +-0.05 units.

dancqu said:
BTW, the above formula is a long way from E-76. It is though a PC
developer.

I know. It was just a handy example of the effect of sulfite. For actual developing I've been using more sulfite, and borax instead of TEA; a formula very close to E-76 1:1. Right now I'm dispensing with the borax and just using phenidone, ascorbic acid and sulfite. Works really well.

dancqu said:
Have you tried phenidone in bisulfite solution a la Dignan; One gram
phenidone, 5 grams S. bisulfite, to make one liter? Dan

Thanks for the suggestion. I may try it, but intuitively it seems to make more sense to dissolve the phenidone in something like glycol or TEA.

glbeas · Nov 24, 2004

I was poking through the cabinet getting out stuff to try this developer out with and noticed the old bottle of Print Flattening solution. A closer look at the label reveals the stuff is ethylene glycol. And I thought I'd have to do some looking to findstuff like that for my phenidone!

Now what was that ratio to make the 1% solution? 1 gram to 100ml glycol?

gainer · Nov 25, 2004

If it's not pure or at least tech grade ethylene glycol, don't bother with the print flattening solution. You would do better with automobile antifreeze, which is mostly ethylene glycol or, it it is the safe kind, propylene glycol.

glbeas · Nov 25, 2004

Is there a particular brand you would recommend? Im kinda put off by the brightly colored dyes I see in most of them.

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 25, 2004

My recommendation is to order some propylene glycol from The Chemistry Store:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/propylene_glycol.htm

glbeas · Nov 25, 2004

Well, thats the nice way to do it but I'd like to be able to find useable products on the shelves of the local stores whenever I can as long as the quality fits the usage. I'm thinking there is one brand of antifreeze at least that has no dyes or other additives but don't know what they are called.

gainer · Nov 27, 2004

I doubt it. The things in antifreeze that give it the color are there to prevent corrosion of the cooling system. It only amounts to about 0.5% of the total. I have not seen any deleterious effects but the color itself. Sierra is one brand of propylene glycol antifreeze. You might try to contact the company to see what else they might have to offer.

argentic · Nov 27, 2004

glbeas said:
Well, thats the nice way to do it but I'd like to be able to find useable products on the shelves of the local stores whenever I can as long as the quality fits the usage. I'm thinking there is one brand of antifreeze at least that has no dyes or other additives but don't know what they are called.

Here in Holland I buy 100 % pure propylene glycol without additives as dairy cow medicine against reduced milk production. It's not expensive either.

fhovie · Dec 3, 2004

Ok - this has been a great discussion - so - I want to try some TEA/Ascorbate paper developer - do we have a good formula? I am not interested in using it on film. It will be for both fiber and RC emulsions. Normal use - 1 month shelf life? good blacks? 40 8x10s per liter? Am I in the right place? I am looking for a formula that worked. Is there one here? Is the advantage of TEA/Ascorbate mostly environmental? is there a performance/cost benefit? I got a great deal on Sodium Ascorbate from a place called Nowcatalog - about $10 a lb, - Looks like TEA is good at photoformulary for $15 a liter - Is there a better place? I never had a problem mixing Phenidone in water ... I have been using this last batch for 6 months and have gone through many batches adding Phenidone right to water and it mixes in. - I always at my sulfite first.

Thanks!

Tom Hoskinson · Dec 3, 2004

fhovie said:
Ok - this has been a great discussion - so - I want to try some TEA/Ascorbate paper developer - do we have a good formula? I am not interested in using it on film. It will be for both fiber and RC emulsions. Normal use - 1 month shelf life? good blacks? 40 8x10s per liter? Am I in the right place? I am looking for a formula that worked. Is there one here? Is the advantage of TEA/Ascorbate mostly environmental? is there a performance/cost benefit? I got a great deal on Sodium Ascorbate from a place called Nowcatalog - about $10 a lb, - Looks like TEA is good at photoformulary for $15 a liter - Is there a better place? I never had a problem mixing Phenidone in water ... I have been using this last batch for 6 months and have gone through many batches adding Phenidone right to water and it mixes in. - I always at my sulfite first.

Thanks!

What I am using is TEA from The Chemistry Store mixed with Trader Joe's Food Grade Ascorbic Acid (about $6.00 a pound). If you use an ascorbate, make sure it is the sodium salt - not calcium!

http://www.chemistrystore.com/triethanolamine.htm
$8.80 per quart
$16.81 per gallon

Advantages of TEA: Extremely long shelf life for the stock solution. When mixed with water, TEA becomes an alkali. Thus TEA can be used as the only alkali in the formula. TEA has low toxicity by itself and in combination with low toxicity developing reagents.

The combination of TEA/Ascorbic Acid/Phenidone with Benzotriazole gives good blacks on Azo (per my own testing results). This combination is reported to give good blacks on other papers as well.

I have developed up to 20 8x10's per liter of working strength developer with no observed changes. See Pat Gainer's APUG posts regarding ascorbic acid developer pH changes and the use of TEA/ascorbic acid stock solution as a replenisher.

psvensson · Dec 3, 2004

I did some further fiddling with the paper developer, and finally got something that works for me.

I started by adding 1 tbsp borax and 1 tsp lye to a liter of water, as recommended by Patrick. I added 2 tbsps ascorbate to that, twice as much as I've used before. In terms of concentration, that's a pretty strong developer!

The large amount of ascorbate solved the problem of aerial exhaustion. The developer now lasted hours and hours in the tray. It also gave a very good maximum black, even without phenidone.

However, there was another problem: image density depended on the time in the developer. Unlike a proper developer, the prints got darker and contrastier with time, even after the shadows reached maximum density. In other words, I had to time the prints in the bath.

Disappointed! After observing that ascorbate and carbonate developed paper without phenidone, I had the ambition to make a good two-component developer. But time-dependent development isn't acceptable.

So I gave up the two-component idea. For the next batch, I added phenidone (8 ml of 0.8% solution) and 1.5 tsp bromide. That fixed the timing problem.

After about 4 hours, the phenidone was exhausted, which meant that the highlights took more time to appear and contrast crept up. Adding another 4 ml of solution fixed the problem.

The developer now gives contrast, hue and maximum black that are a close match for Neutol WA, without the hydroquinone, so I guess I should be happy. I have no idea about storage life, though.

fhovie · Dec 3, 2004

Tom Hoskinson said:
What I am using is TEA from The Chemistry Store mixed with Trader Joe's Food Grade Ascorbic Acid (about $6.00 a pound). If you use an ascorbate, make sure it is the sodium salt - not calcium!

http://www.chemistrystore.com/triethanolamine.htm
$8.80 per quart
$16.81 per gallon

Advantages of TEA: Extremely long shelf life for the stock solution. When mixed with water, TEA becomes an alkali. Thus TEA can be used as the only alkali in the formula. TEA has low toxicity by itself and in combination with low toxicity developing reagents.

The combination of TEA/Ascorbic Acid/Phenidone with Benzotriazole gives good blacks on Azo (per my own testing results). This combination is reported to give good blacks on other papers as well.

I have developed up to 20 8x10's per liter of working strength developer with no observed changes. See Pat Gainer's APUG posts regarding ascorbic acid developer pH changes and the use of TEA/ascorbic acid stock solution as a replenisher.

Great!! - what is the formula??

Tom Hoskinson · Dec 3, 2004

fhovie said:
Great!! - what is the formula??

The DS-14/TEA formula posted in the APUG Chemistry Recipes section:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

fhovie · Dec 3, 2004

Tom Hoskinson said:
The DS-14/TEA formula posted in the APUG Chemistry Recipes section:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Thanks Tom - I saw those formulas and wasn't sure they were the ones you were referring to - I have the TEA and the Benzo on order and will give them a try when they show up - Thanks!!!

Maine-iac · Dec 6, 2004

psvensson said:
However, there was another problem: image density depended on the time in the developer. Unlike a proper developer, the prints got darker and contrastier with time, even after the shadows reached maximum density. In other words, I had to time the prints in the bath.

Disappointed! After observing that ascorbate and carbonate developed paper without phenidone, I had the ambition to make a good two-component developer. But time-dependent development isn't acceptable.

Try divided development for paper (except for RC paper). Put all your developing agents for your favorite paper developer (Phenidone, Ascorbic Acid, HQ, whatever) in Bath A. Put plain carbonate (washing soda) in Bath B (about 1/3 cup per half gallon; exact quantity is not important). After about 20 seconds in Bath A (during which no image will appear, even if you leave it in for hours), move it to Bath B with no rinse in between. The image will come up very quickly and develop to completion with no possibility of overdevelopment, regardless of how long you leave it there. Full development, depending on your ambient temperature, will be about 45 sec. By the way, one of the great conveniences of this is that no temperature controls are necessary; your ambient room temp will do nicely. It will also make you a better printer, because all controls on density and contrast must be done under the enlarger. You can't leave it in the developer longer or pull it shorter in order to control density or contrast. It will develop what's there and no more. IMHO, one of the most under-rated techniques for fine B&W darkroom work. I also used to use it very successfully with Ilfochromes (with a low-contrast Bath A formula) for controlling contrast.

Bath A will not become exhausted if you do not contaminate it with Bath B. You can re-use it for months. It only becomes physically used up as each sheet of paper absorbs a small amount. Two liters of Bath B will announce that it's becoming exhausted when it begins to give you weak blacks. Just dump it and replace with another tray of water with 1/3 cup or so of carbonate. I often mix it right in the tray; takes a few minutes to dissolve fully, but you can start using it even before it's totally dissolved. All it's doing is activating what the latent image absorbed in Bath A.

Larry

psvensson · Dec 6, 2004

Larry, that's a super-cool idea. I will definitely try.

fhovie · Dec 10, 2004

Rather than mixing one liter (according to the instructions on the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) link,) why not do it this way? Make the 500ml of part A solution with the TEA, Phenidone and Ascorbic Acid. And then make another solution of 500ml water, 120g Sodium Sulphite, 300g Sodium Carbonate and 10g Potassium Bromide. Then to make a liter of working solution; add 50ml A, 50ml B and 900ml Water. That would keep the mixing on one day and use till gone - 1 year shelf life???
Is there any reason not to do it this way???
How much Benzotriazole powder to add and which stock solution to add it to (A or B)? - I have a (calibrated) scale that can measure .001g

Also - can this be used like XTOL? What would the dilutions be??

dancqu · Dec 10, 2004

fhovie said:
...then make another solution of 500ml
water, 120g Sodium Sulphite, 300g Sodium Carbonate and 10g
Potassium Bromide. Is there any reason not to do it this way???

I'm quite sure 120 gr of sodium sulfite will not fit into 500 ml
of water. I'm sure 300 gr of sodium carbonate will not fit into
500 ml or water. You're OK on the bromide.

BTW, you do mean to say "water to make 500 ml"? Dan

fhovie · Dec 10, 2004

dancqu said:
I'm quite sure 120 gr of sodium sulfite will not fit into 500 ml
of water. I'm sure 300 gr of sodium carbonate will not fit into
500 ml or water. You're OK on the bromide.

BTW, you do mean to say "water to make 500 ml"? Dan

How about 1 liter instead of 500ml for solution B and then mix as 50, 100, 850? Why will B not last? what if I mix B in something other than water .. Glycol or Alcholol? - I would like to not have to mix chemicals every time - I like the way I can make PMK or Pyrocat just by mixing fluids with water and toss. -

If it just can't be done than I guess that is the way it goes - How different is PC TEA than XTOL in performance on film as far as grain and film speed?

psvensson · Dec 11, 2004

I think you can leave out the sulfite - I'm not sure what it does in an ascorbate paper developer. Certainly does nothing for D-max or tray life.

You may not be able to dissolve 300g of sodium carbonate in 500 ml of water, but I believe potassium carbonate will work.

I see no reason the B solution shouldn't last a very long time.

gainer · Dec 11, 2004

The sulfite does nothing useful that I have seen in paper developer unless you want to add hydroquinone. Then 1.2 grams of sulfite per gram of hydroquinone will activate the synergism with either metol or phenidone by forming hydroquinone monosulfonate.

You could make "mix and match" solutions of PC-TEA, Q-TEA and saturated sodium or potassium carbonate and combine them like you might the old Beers formulas. Sulfite eventually turns to sulfate in solution, I think, but you could make a solution of it as well to add to the menagerie. If you find the magic elixir, you could keep it as a trade secret or tell us about it.

fhovie · Dec 11, 2004

gainer said:
If you find the magic elixir, you could keep it as a trade secret or tell us about it.

This is a give and take org - anything I know is open to anyone here that is interested - I would be very far behind without the shared knowledge of this group. Maybe someday, I'll even have an invention but for now - I see what there is to try and see what makes sense.

psvensson · Dec 11, 2004

The odd thing is that the MSDS for Agfa Neutol Plus, a PA print developer, lists sulfite as one of the components. Maybe it preserves some other component, but I wouldn't know what.

dancqu · Dec 11, 2004

How does this strike you: PA stands for Public Acceptance.
Sulfite is the activator. Phenidone works well at a lower ph
than metol. Metol and sulfite will make a print developer
though not a preferred combination. Dan

Ascorbate paper developer

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency