ASA/ISO 25 sheet film, Pan F etc...overkill in 4x5 sheet film?

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harlequin

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Hello Team,
I understand there are some sheet films (Rollei I believe) that offer ASA 25 sheet film.
Having only tried hp5 asa 400 in 4x5, with good results, what would be the benefit of a slow asa, other than really longer exposure times?
Would fine grain be that much finer?
With high acutance developer, would this be overkill on the resolution ?
I have seen some outstanding 4x5 work with Tmax 100 at higher emulsion speed.
Lastly, even when reading technical details on Ansel Adams or Avedon they seemed to favor super-x?
Or tri x in later years and still got great sharpness and detail....with higher Asa/iso films.

What say You?
Appreciate all feedback or visual samples...

Harlequin
 

ic-racer

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16x20 of a 4x5 negative on HP5 can be called 'grainy' depending on the development, subject and processing technique. Especially coming from a darkroom that mostly prints to 16x20 from 8x10 negatives.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I've shot CMS-20. Resolution overkill for sure. Difficult from to work with. I still have a few sheets is Efke 25 in 8x10. Gorgeous film. Printed it at 16x20. Detail is wonderful. Heaps easier to work with than CMS-20.
I'm happiest though with HP5 8x10.
 

138S

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I've shot CMS-20. Resolution overkill for sure. Difficult from to work with. I still have a few sheets is Efke 25 in 8x10. Gorgeous film. Printed it at 16x20. Detail is wonderful. Heaps easier to work with than CMS-20.
I'm happiest though with HP5 8x10.

I've also Shot CMS 20 in 4x5... Its ultimate resolution is an overkill, but not many other films around are able to take all resolution a very good lens is able like CMS. One have to print really big to see the advantage.

Of course it is not easy to work with CMS 20, exposure has to be nailed and spot metering can be very useful, better if shutters have been tested. Also it works better at ISO 12 or 6, and still aperture vs DOF have to be the optimal to take real advantage from the resolving power boost.
 

138S

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what would be the benefit of a slow asa, other than really longer exposure times?
Would fine grain be that much finer?

Longer exposure times are an advantage if you don't have a shutter for the lens, for example if exposing by removing the lens cap, a Neutral Density filter does the same than having a lower density.

With the same technology if ISO is lowered to 1/4 then typical grain diameters decrease to the half. Grain sensitivity is proportional to the grain surface taking light, area is proportional to diameter, so if crystals used have x2 diameter then sensitivity increases x4.

You cannot compare films sporting different technology... T-Max and Delta (and Neopan) have flat grains delivering an smaller than expected grain size, compared to cubic crystals, the same surface exposed to light contains less silver halide.

Also during Emulsion Sensitization, etc speed can be boosted more or less. So in general, with the same film type, you can enlarge, compared to ISO 100, you can enlarge x2 a ISO 25 shot, having a similar grain size in the print. Still many factors are there like developer or condenser vs diffuser enlargers.


Also with low ISO films you can expect a lower highlight latitude. Usually very small crystals are also present in high speed film, you overexpose those less if using a high ISO exposure, so they are more difficult to saturate.


With high acutance developer, would this be overkill on the resolution ?

Acutance and resolution are different concepts, sharpness is (mostly) the combination of resolving power with acutance.

If you want great acutance easy then I'd use Xtol, developing in tray with reduced agitation. Acutance is a bit improved (seen only in very large prints for the format) from edge effects obtained from low agitation.

upload_2021-1-24_13-23-7.png

See The Darkroom Cookbook: https://silveronplastic.files.wordp...ookbook-3rd-ed-s-anchell-elsevier-2008-ww.pdf

When you can, just purchase the new The Film Development Cookbook, to support the authors and to get an extensive masterliness about that.



With high acutance developer, would this be overkill on the resolution ?
I have seen some outstanding 4x5 work with Tmax 100 at higher emulsion speed.

Not the lens, not the film, not the developer... what is sharp or not it's the photographer himself.

Your technique it's what will deliver the kind of shot you want. Acutance of the is related a lot with illumination. Illumination it's very complex you have diffuse and directional components, and this have interaction with textures.

Of course film, developer and processing have an impact, but this is only a 1/10 of the tale. Focus, DOF, Aperture, Vibrations, Subject, illumination are (say) another 1/10. The remaining 80% is the photographer's capability to optimize all that to get the sharpness (more or less) he wants for the shot.

Let me recommend you this book you can get used nearly for free:

upload_2021-1-24_13-39-20.png


Lastly, even when reading technical details on Ansel Adams or Avedon they seemed to favor super-x?
Or tri x in later years and still got great sharpness and detail....with higher Asa/iso films.

FLEXIBLE vs EASY TO PRINT

Super-X was IMO a more linear film, compared. Perhaps, at some point, Adams saw that having a flexible negative could be benefical in some situations, and for sure his disciple John Sexton was very influential at Kodak in the T-Max linear capture way. In that era (early 1980s) it happened that Variable Contrast paper became a sound choice, it existed since 1940's but it was in early 1980's that it became a sound choice from product improvement. Since then we burn highlights in 00 grade and shadows in 5 grade, making a linear capture more suitable because involved greater image manipulation ends less in botched job (for challenging scenes). Graded paper can be suitable but VC has that principal advantage: we dodge/burn with different grades, this is not possible with graded papers.

If you are scan/hybrid then a linear film is perfect, no problem...

If you are to make sound prints in the darkroom then you have two choices (and anything in the middle) if the scene range surpasses the paper dynamic range and you have to compress shadows or highlights to fit...

1) Using a film/processing combination that compresses shadows/highlights (totally or partially) in a way the negative it's easy to print, you have to control well exposure and knowing a lot how the thing works. An example is Yousuf Karsk ultramaster portraiture, he used toe a lot to get the shadow depiction controlled, and shadows can be very important in portraits... Also Zone System is mostly based using compressed and linear zones, making usage from toe/shoulder

2) Taking a very linear capture with a very linear film/processing, this yields a very flexible negative that it may be quite diffcult to print, requiring extensive image manipulation (dodging/burning) or advanced (time consuming) masking like SCIM, HLM, etc. Other ways to get highlight texture with linear films (and high DR scenes) is using pyro developers as the stain blocks more the blue so the higher proportional stain in the highlights lowers the effective contrast there, compressing the highlights, another way is long toe (to print the negative shoulder) silver chloride paper: Lodima, Lupex or the killed Kodak AZO, but this is more suitable for contact copies because it's low speed, still with LED boosted enlargers this can be overcomed.


But if you scan then you blend the curves like you want in Photoshop, no problem if scanning/editing 16 bits per channel (save in TIFF to preserve the 16 bits). Problem is if one gets used to scan only then the negatives can be difficult to print optically and as we have no feedback then we don't refine the negative crafting for the darkroom way.
 
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I find I don't even use my stock of T-Max 100 very often simply due to the slower speed. Subject movement is a real issue with LF, even if the camera is stabilized on a tripod.

I'm always trying to optimize aperture and shutter speed, so like to shoot at f/22-f/32 as much as possible. Add a filter to that and shutter speeds can get pretty slow, even with 400-speed film.

Yes, an N+1 negative from a 400-speed film can get a bit grainy at 16x20, but that's better than no shot at all. My go-to films these days are TXP (320) and TMY (400).

Best,

Doremus
 

CasperMarly

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What size do you print?
In printing, do you find grain to be something that mars the image viewing in some way?
All the choices give a lot of leeway when you are looking at "Grain" as a major determining factor.
Too bad Kodak Tech pan is no longer available.
That said - Ilford and Kodak both make some beautiful film that prints well for many. Even those noted for being very picky about final print quality.
 

138S

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While not cheap, if you want the “best of all worlds” in a high speed film, the most advanced B&W film we can buy is Kodak TMY-2. ISO 400, very long exposure scale, extremely fine grain (beats most 100 speed films) and high sharpness.

A possibility is using 6x12cm roll film back. In that way cost is $1.3 per shot, while a 4x5 TMY sheet costs $3.5, near threefold. For panoramic shots that format can be suitable.

In the EU a single 4x5" TMY sheet costs around $6 after Euro-$ conversion, sheets are crazy expensive here (then add the standard of living difference...), so the roll film back can be an alternative here.

upload_2021-1-27_14-58-47.png
 

Lachlan Young

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Stuff like Pan-F was really originally meant for amateurs with smaller format cameras who believed that through 'careful technique' (an oxymoron with most of them) they could supposedly equal the next size up neg format. Same with all the repurposed short scale document films etc. Much to my amusement, I recently found an article by one of the formulators of some of the developers supposed to help make microfilms usable under normal photographic conditions - where he basically admits that Ilford XP1 (!) essentially equaled if not bettered most of what he was getting from microfilm/ technical film in real-world usage.
 

voceumana

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Forget what Ansel Adams used--the films he used in his prime were no longer the same as his late images, and the films we have today are still much different, even when they use the same names.

Every film has its own character with grain, resolution, contrast, color sensitivity, and response to specific developers.

Extremely slow speed films allow for very long exposures. The long exposure can blur movement, or erase it completely, if the exposure is long enough and the movement fast enough--like people walking in front of a building.

So choose a film based on the results you want, but don't look for an extremely slow film to show an improvement in grain over properly exposed and developed medium and faster speed films. The film size alone takes care of that.
 

Donald Qualls

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Forget what Ansel Adams used--the films he used in his prime were no longer the same as his late images, and the films we have today are still much different, even when they use the same names.

Ansel went from ortho glass plates (before he'd even quit playing piano professionally) to consulting on the design of T-Max and Polycontrast. Just a little change in emulsion character over that time, and he did mention at one point (in the second edition of his trilogy) that "modern" films (forty years ago!) didn't expand and contract contrast as well as the ones he was using when the Zone System was new.
 
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