Artifacts of some sort on Tri-X

M-88 · Nov 25, 2018

Hello

I've encountered a rather strange thing on my latest roll of film. It's a 35 mm Kodak Tri-X expired back in 2011. I shot it at EI320 and developed in homemade D-76 developer which I made according to the instructions. I used 1+1 dilution, developed for 9 minutes at 21 degrees Celsius. Whole roll developed evenly and without any other unwanted surprises. Except for one. This is a sample:

And this is a 100% crop of the same picture:

Whole roll has the same little black things all over it. It's not what Tri-X photos look like on the internet so I must be doing something wrong. Can anyone point at the problem?

Thank you.

M.

MattKing · Nov 25, 2018

That looks like reticulation - usually the result of the film going through rapid changes in temperature during the development process. Did you use wash water that was at a temperature significantly different than 21C?

M-88 · Nov 25, 2018

MattKing said:
That looks like reticulation - usually the result of the film going through rapid changes in temperature during the development process. Did you use wash water that was at a temperature significantly different than 21C?

Stop bath was 21 degrees again, but the fixer was 24. And then final wash was again at 21.

Sirius Glass · Nov 25, 2018

MattKing said:
That looks like reticulation - usually the result of the film going through rapid changes in temperature during the development process. Did you use wash water that was at a temperature significantly different than 21C?

Yes, exactly what I think.

gorbas · Nov 25, 2018

Reticulation +1

M-88 · Nov 25, 2018

I guess that settles it. And that was fast. Thank you all.

MattKing · Nov 25, 2018

I'm wondering whether reticulation-like effects could somehow be caused by some sort of handling problem pre-exposure? If the film was exposed to extreme temperatures in the years between manufacture and development, could it be rendered more susceptible to reticulation?
Modern films don't normally reticulate if the change of temperature between solutions is just 3C.
One further possibility - how confident are you that your thermometer is consistent. Even if it isn't accurate, if it is consistent it shouldn't be a source of this sort of problem.

jim appleyard · Nov 25, 2018

Yup, reticulation. You might be able to live with this if you make small enlargements.

M-88 · Nov 25, 2018

Thermometer is an interesting point, I should check mine with some other. I also have three more rolls of the same film, let's see how things will go with them.

E. von Hoegh · Nov 25, 2018

Reticulation.
Try putting it on the net, say it's unique to film & maybe start a new fad.

NB23 · Nov 25, 2018

Looks like reticulation but I hardly believe that it is indeed reticulation. Modern emulsions are exctremely hard to reticulate even when I tried (from warm developer into the freezer)...

removedacct1 · Nov 25, 2018

NB23 said:
Looks like reticulation but I hardly believe that it is indeed reticulation. Modern emulsions are exctremely hard to reticulate even when I tried (from warm developer into the freezer)...

From the opening post, I think we have a clue:

M-88 said:
It's a 35 mm Kodak Tri-X expired back in 2011

Its an old roll of Tri-X that has been subjected to who knows what conditions. If there's a modern emulsion available to us that is more likely to induce reticulation, surely its Tri-X.

Rudeofus · Nov 25, 2018

As far as hardening is concerned, Tri-X should be in the same league as Vision 3 movie film. If you look at ECN-2 process spec, there are strong temperature changes between bathes. However, these temperature changes are from 41°C down to 27°C, i.e. the lower temperature is still quite high. I myself have never seen reticulation, and my bath temperatures vary a lot, but are always above 20°C. I could therefore imagine, that reticulation is more likely to happen at very low temperatures, where the gelatin is more brittle.

Kino · Nov 25, 2018

Yes, I have found it almost impossible to induce reticulation in modern film stocks and I tried real hard by developing in 80 degree F developer and fixing @ around 50 degrees without luck.

I wonder if you could post the formula you used? Any chance you measured any of the chemicals incorrectly? Something that would soften the emulsion quite a bit?

WilmarcoImaging · Nov 25, 2018

I’m not in the reticulation camp for the reasons given above. Old, expired film of unknown progeny is my guess. Humidity can cause similar defects.

Are the defects in the edge/rebate area? Can you post an unmodified scan of the sprocket area?

removed account4 · Nov 25, 2018

i don't know what it is but i love it when my film does the same thing !

Photo Engineer · Nov 25, 2018

Reticulation for sure, and very difficult to get with Kodak films.

PE

Bill Burk · Nov 25, 2018

I’ve never experienced reticulation. Really old film was susceptible. Expired 2011 is modern in that context.

I recently read in an old photo magazine I almost threw out, that you could cause it deliberately by boiling film in a a sodium carbonate solution then plunging it in ice water.

M-88 · Nov 26, 2018

E. von Hoegh said:
Reticulation.
Try putting it on the net, say it's unique to film & maybe start a new fad.

Don't we have enough unnecessary things on the net already?

Kino said:
I wonder if you could post the formula you used? Any chance you measured any of the chemicals incorrectly? Something that would soften the emulsion quite a bit?

It's a standard formula for D-76. Or at least what I think to be standard formula for D-76: 2 grams of Metol (mine isn't too white anymore), 5 grams of hydroquinone, 100 grams of sodium sulfite and 2 grams of borax. All that was halved since I made only 0.5 litre of solution, but I think that wouldn't matter too much. I used water with vinegar for stopping and plain hypo solution for fixing. I used digital scales for measuring and they measured my wife's jewelry correctly so I think they work adequately.

WilmarcoImaging said:
Are the defects in the edge/rebate area? Can you post an unmodified scan of the sprocket area?

Good question. And I don't know. I will do a scan of whole film width as soon as I get back home (which will be in 10-11 hours) and post an image.

Photo Engineer said:
Reticulation for sure, and very difficult to get with Kodak films.

PE

I already feel special. For sale: Three rolls of hipster film, 3000 dollars each!

Agulliver · Nov 26, 2018

It looks like reticulation.

However OP states there is not a great temperature variation between dev, wash, fix.

I've had similar artefacts with reticulation occurring when I've used hot water accidentally as a wash...but not with water within 10C of the chemicals. The other time I've seen something similar is with very expired film, Ilford FP4 about 40 years expired. Tri-X which expired in 2011 shouldn't be doing this. I've used Tri-X 18 years beyond it's expiry date stored in horrendous conditions (in my garage for over a decade, gets hot and cold) with no issues whatsoever.

So to me, this is something of a mystery. But I restate my original sentence. It *looks* like reticulation.

bernard_L · Nov 26, 2018

Is this actually present on the film? Could this be a s******g artefact?
@ M-88: could you try an enlarger print?

M-88 · Nov 26, 2018

bernard_L said:
Is this actually present on the film? Could this be a s******g artefact?
@ M-88: could you try an enlarger print?

Yep, it is on the negative, it was visible while it was hanging to dry. Unfortunately I can't print it since I have no appropriate chemicals for the job. Neither have I the experience. But I assure you, those things are present on the film.

Anon Ymous · Nov 26, 2018

For the record, I shot some Tri-X of the same vintage (expired 11/2011) that had been stored in much less than ideal conditions, certainly never cold stored. It has lost some speed, I rate it at EI 250, it has perhaps a tad coarser grain, but is definitely usable.

How this sort of reticulation happened is a complete mystery for me too, a 3 degree temperature variation isn't enough to cause it. Such a film is more than well hardened.

otto.f · Nov 26, 2018

Although it looks certainly like reticulation, and it hardly can be something else given the pattern, it’s impossible to get it with only 3 degrees difference.

M-88 · Nov 26, 2018

WilmarcoImaging said:
Can you post an unmodified scan of the sprocket area?

I hope this will serve as a good sample:

Artifacts of some sort on Tri-X

M-88

MattKing

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Artifacts of some sort on Tri-X

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