Art and Mini-Labs - Why Do It Yourself?

Now, I have to say that the local Wal-Mart does an excellent job. They are knowledgeable about they're machines, and since I have been getting my C-41 done there for years. They recently switched over to a "dry lab" meaning they print CMKY dye-sub on fuji inkjet paper. I don't do any of that, because I don't like the way the prints act. They scan the negs for me, CD Only, and will do just about anything I ask. I tell them not to color correct anything, turn off all the automatic deals, and they have no problems doing anything like that.

I think I am going to start using Richards Photo lab for my color stuff as well tho, because I have no say in what the Corporate monsters do.

Costco does a good job in their minilab. I have had no problems with film processing except that they do not process 120 film. When I have prints made, I have them made by the manager who I have gotten to know on a first name basis. If I do not like the print, he reprints it for free.

One time he told me to rescan a 120 negative because he was spots. I brought the new file in and he did not charge me for the redo.

The 35mm prints are made directly from the negative and even though they go through a hybrid process for up to 12x18 they come out better than if I had then make a CD.

For custom color I have an all optical photo finisher that I use.

Steve

Dear Steve and Tom;
First I will reply to Steve. Steve, if composition, cropping and proper exposure is all you aim for in your expression then what you have described is not akin to art but more akin to framing and technique. If what you later describe in darkroom craft, dodging, burning and image manipulation to achieve your vision, then what you have described is the compilation leading to artistic expression. It is the road every photographic artist has taken to earn the right to call themselves artists. The word artist has oftentimes become used to mean something above, elite, better than not but that is only in the opinion of others. I use the term to describe the "compleat" not complete, photographer.
That is, vision, under total control of craft, to realize that vision and that original vision thus realized,(composed), is the Art.
Tom, I am very sorry if you thought my use of the word composer implied musical composition...Never. I know of no composer who was not only versed in their craft but very often brilliant performing artists as well... Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Chopin, Gershwin and others too numerous to mention. Tom, have you ever known a composer that could not sight read or at the least have some knowledge of orchestration or play an instrument? I have not met one and I was, in my early life before becoming a professional athlete, a musician. In the mid 1950's while I was studying toward a career as a concert pianist, I met Ansel Adams while he was photographing on our Sierra property. While he was photographing a huge burnt out cedar stump, I asked why he didn't prefer to photograph the six beautiful waterfalls and cascades on our property and he explained his vision to me and analogized music and photography. That moment struck me like a thunderbolt and for the rest of the morning and late into the afternoon we discussed music and photography. Ansel started me on this wondrous journey and I am forever grateful for that gift. Tom, I will tell you that of all the art forms, musical composition and literature are at the summit of art in my opinion and will outlast every other art form. I am sorry that I do not posses the talent for either. I am equally sorry that what I wrote offended you so much, as after reading your response, it is clear that we are in complete agreement on what constitutes the necessary components of art.
Denise Libby

Denise - yours is an interesting argument. May I ask if you have considered photographers who use slide film and project the results. Can they be artists?

Steve.

Dear Steve;
In a word yes. Perhaps Alfred Stieglitz said it best, "art is only work until some rich guy buys it". A little cynical and in many cases much too true. I believe that art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps a more universal definition should include that art is a want not a need.
Denise Libby

Denise,
Thank you for your reply. I see that I mistook your words. I will excuse my harsh reply by saying that it was probably in part due to the physical, mental, and emotional exhaustion that often dogs me during the final stages of a months-long theatre project. I saw your words and had a little defensive hissy fit. I offer my sincerest apologies.

i have never heard that people who take their film to a lab aren't "real artists",
or if someone shoots chromes they are less of a photographer
than someone who shoots black and white ...
i don't share that point of view at all and i think it is kind of comical that that this was even suggested...
seeing so many photographers, who have "made it" worked hand in hand with a lab,

jnanian said:

or if someone shoots chromes they are less of a photographer

Click to expand...

I mentioned slides but feel I ought to clarify my point as I certainly don't think shooting slides makes one less of a photographer.

Denise wrote:

archer said:

If what you later describe in darkroom craft, dodging, burning and image manipulation to achieve your vision, then what you have described is the compilation leading to artistic expression.

Click to expand...

From this I asked about slide shooting & projecting specifically as the method has no darkroom stage. Without darkroom craft, I wondered, could this still be "the compilation leading to artistic expression" as Denise argued.

archer said:

Dear Steve and Tom;
First I will reply to Steve. Steve, if composition, cropping and proper exposure is all you aim for in your expression then what you have described is not akin to art but more akin to framing and technique.

Click to expand...

From what you are saying, a photographer who takes slides, not matter how good is completely devoid of any artistic ability. Obviously, either you have never taken a good slide or you do not know what you are talking about.

Steve

Dear Steve (Sirius Glass);
Where in heaven did you see me write that " anyone who takes slides, no matter how good is completely devoid of any artistic ability." My words mean exactly what I wrote, not what you have misconstrued. It may help you understand me when I tell you that I am not subtle in my meaning nor do I practice innuendo. If I meant you to understand that what you wrote was truly what I meant, I would have expressed it exactly as you have misconstrued it. When I started as a working photographer, I was junior to the rest of the staff of a large studio and was the only one there with experience in shooting transparencies and it thus fell to me to shoot all our color work, that was for publication, in 4X5 chromes, using a speed graphic, hand held with film no faster than 50 ASA. Our most important client was the University of California at Davis and their most important day was the famous Picnic Day. I was given the assignment to shoot the Queens float during the parade and the image was to be used as the signature image of the school in their yearbook and on every brochure mailed by the school for that year. My composition was perfect. The exposures were perfect and the assignment was a success and the work was used as intended. Does that make it art? No! it makes it WORK! Why is the assignment of the word, art, to our work, necessary for our vision of ourselves? Why is being a good, great or brilliant photographer not good enough to satisfy the need for self worth? Please remember that self delusion is the opiate of the ego maniacal and was the point of my first post regarding William Eggleston and that vapid inanity he refers to as his "art". From personal knowledge, I can assure you that if you called Gene Smith an artist, he'd likely punch you in the mouth and Ansel would have smiled and presented his fanny for kissing and these were truly great artists but more, they were great photographers.
Denise Libby

The art in taking slides is getting the exposure right with a medium that has a narrow latitude of light, composing and cropping so that the slide is a finished work. With slides, one can not go back and crop [yes, you can mount in glass and mask off areas, but it ends up looking like that], OR change the contrast OR burn in/dodge areas OR bleach OR tone. The art is in capturing the moment exactly as intended by the photographer.

There are no redos or after the fact alterations. One gets it right or reshoots. There are no other possibilities.

I can take a print and do many things to it to improve it. That does not exist with slides.

When I started as a high school student, I did not have a budget to reshoot photographs. Learning to get it right the first time is a very useful capability, an art, that serves taking black & white and color prints well.

If you still think that taking slides is an art, consider that once a photograph, even a slide, is taken the composition cannot be improved. It can be cropped but not improved. AA said that without a good composition, a photograph cannot be made good or interesting no matter what darkroom techniques were used.

If you still do not think that photographing slides is an art, then you better contact every art school, art history class, art dealer and art museum and tell them that you do not consider composition a component of art, that you think that composition is a mechanical-technical operation that can be accomplished by a machine. And that composition should no longer be part of art appreciation or art curriculum.

Steve

I need to update my claim that I have never had problems with Wal-Mart.
I went today, to have 3 rolls of HP5+ and 400tx scanned. How I ended up with a roll of 400tx in the mix I don't know. Anyhow, the Fuji machine WOULD NOT register the frame on my HP5. He tried every way to make it work. Dishartened, I went to Walgreens, as they are the only other place I know of in town to scan my negs.

What did they do? This: Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed

Well, I am still livid at the sheer incompetence. So that's all I'll say. The only reason I scan to CD is to proof... Thursday, its old school day. I'm going to make an actual contact print, and actual real print prints.

getting back to the original post ...

Dave Pritchard said:

I think this young man is a conscientious employee. This is an eye-opener. The video is only about four minutes long. I am not critical of Brandon. I think we should know what happens to our color negative processing at mini-labs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPj98RysHS0

The problem is that the 4"x6" prints produced are scanned, then are edited by a minimum-wage employee, not the photographer. Where's the art? How does the photographer know what the negatives look like?

Click to expand...

do we know anything about the fellow who operates the mini lab,
other than what we see and what he says ?
yes, he is a clerk at the drug store who runs the equipment.
he seems well trained and knows exactly what he is doing.
how much training would he have to have to be a competent printer
or photographer or artist ?
( one doesn't need to be a trained photographer or artist to
print photographs ... it helps but it isn't necessary )

do we know that he has never taken elective art classes in school ?

i would easily say that he uses a camera and knows what a good photograph
looks like from first hand experience ( using his phone, his ds or his camera and seeing thousands of negatives and prints ) ...

i don't think i am going out on a limb here but i don't really think
the lion's share of the people who drop their film off at the drug
store really care that he isn't a trained artist ( or is he ? )
what their negatives look like, or that he is using his own good judgement to interpret their film.
i really wouldn't call a drug store a "custom lab"

The point is that Brandon will correct an exposure which does not look right to him. Some of us assume that the machines are automatic. We think we are getting consistent results, when the Brandons are fixing our color balance or brightness using their own judgment. If we are shooting snapshots, that's fine. If we aspire to anything else, we should get to know the process, and maybe the person editing the scans, (or do it ourselves).

1 hour labs or mini labs are far different than professional labs. I always send my film to a professional lab for development for three reasons - no time, no skill and because I can. I shoot colour transparencies mostly and any B&W film I shoot, I send to dr5 to develop them as transparencies too.

When it comes to printing, that's whole other story and I expect the professional lab to make NO adjustments to the file I send them except to correct for individual printer gamuts - that's because I made all the adjustments I want in PS and proofed them using an inkjet printer first.

Regards, Art.

i agree with you 100% david, it is good to know the process
AND the people doing it. working relationships can never be
a bad thing, unless of course, the lab guy is robin williams

I have no issue with minilabs/1-hr labs. I'll use pro labs sometimes, but they're expensive for my purposes--I don't need perfect prints created by someone else. I want scans, and only get the negatives--all minilabs, if properly maintained, are capable of doing this. Lately it's more difficult to find a drugstore with a minilab, at least in New York, which is why I've been frequenting my dedicated 1-hr lab more, even though they cost about $1 more. But generally I don't find the need for dip-and-dunk at an additional $3 above the 1-hr lab. And I love the people at my 1-hr lab, they are quite accommodating.

I would LIKE to get wet prints, but color is so variable when someone else is doing it. These days I only submit scans that I corrected myself and request no further adjustments as gr82bart said above.

I found some 10-year-old prints the other day and had a wonderful moment of nostalgia. They were essentially snaps but important to me (some dear friends with their 8-day-old baby) so I'd taken them to a pro place. I was rather horrified by the awful color of the prints I got back...and to my young self, they'd been relatively expensive. I then took the negs to a drugstore--possibly CVS, can't remember for sure--where I found an incredibly patient employee (not a teen) willing to adjust the prints exactly as I expected. It took multiple tries, yet she only charged for the single copies I'd wanted...and was just as excited as I was to see the color balance perfected. Complete professionalism and love for the job. At a drugstore. Hard to imagine now.