ARSENAL factory is History -- Kiev is dead, long live Kievs

Barry06GT · Nov 20, 2009

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If you do not like the comments, instead of pretending to be offended, do not subscribe to the thread.

Censor is not the proper course when a person respectfully disagrees with your views.
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mikebarger · Nov 20, 2009

Kino

What part of the globe do you inhabit? There hasn't been any out of line comments concerning Kiev products, just disagreement as to its value in todays economic market.

Not many think they are/were a tool for professionals or heavy users. Many thought that it was worth a chance to try one for those who put light demand on a camera when other MF equipment was priced high compared to todays market. Then there are those that feel they were/are a good value regardless of the price of other brands, to heck with a few repairs now and then. Some didn't think they were of value at any price because of the dependability issue.

If Kiev was your favorite brand, I'm sorry you lost it. However, you have a lot of choices out there that provide better dependability at the same or lower pricing.

Differences of opinion, if civilized, should be welcomed not criticized.

Just 2 cents worth.

Mike

Q.G. · Nov 20, 2009

Kino said:
Like I said, some people just can't respect a moment without putting something down...

Ah! That's why you think you need to tell people who don't like Kievs that you think they are insecure label snobs!

Kino said:
Would a moderator please close this tread?

Why?
Are you feeling that insecure in the company of people who can recognise things as they are?

Alexander Ghaffari · Nov 20, 2009

I like Soviet cameras, and I've owned a few, but a problem was that sometimes my 35mm still (more serious problems) and Super 8 cinema (luckily, I could always fix this one in the field) cameras would fail me, when I needed them most. I have a 75 year old German Zeiss-Ikon that hasn't been CLAed in decades, if not at all in its 75 years of existence, and it works perfectly every time that I use it.

The reason that I don't buy more Soviet cameras is because of the reliability issues that I have experienced first hand. I do enjoy Soviet lenses. I truly wish they were more reliable.

Vaughn · Nov 20, 2009

We had a Kiev 6x6 donated to our program (w/ 80mm lens). It is always interesting to run new students through the use of the camera. It makes them appreciate our Fuji 6x7 that much more!

Vaughn

Sirius Glass · Nov 20, 2009

When the prices for the other cameras were high, then Kiev et al could find a market niche made up of customers who would tolerate less than reliable camera equipment.

When the prices of the highly reliable equipment dropped in the used market due to the digital revolution, people like me started buying the high end cameras [Hasselblad in my case.]. The price difference between high quality and iffy reliability became small enough so that the Kiev et al were not attractive enough to retain their markets. Add in a worldwide economic depression and it does not take an economist to predict what would happen.

While it is bad news that Kiev et al have left the market, they could have had a successful enterprise if they had only cleaned up their act. The fact that their products had a long history of problems was hardly news to them. They chose to not improve the engineering, manufacturing and quality control. They worked their way out of business and that was their choice. They have had twenty years since the fall of the Wall to clean up their act. I for one cannot feel a lot of sympathy for them.

Steve

Bosaiya · Nov 21, 2009

Bosaiya said:
I'm doing my first trial-by-fire with a Kiev 60 today. My fingers are crossed!

Developed eleven rolls from yesterday, worked like a champ under very difficult circumstances. I bought it as a sacrificial camera so I wouldn't be too worried if I lost it. I was very impressed, I wasn't expecting too much but it worked great!

alanrockwood · Apr 23, 2010

Kino said:
This sucks...

********

Kiev, Ukraine [Russian KOI-8R is below]

Dear friends and kievaholiks.

It is pity to inform that after 245 year the ARSENAL factory (Zavod
ARSENAL in Russian) is lost. After many judicial proceedings now we
have the Special Construction Department (SKTB in Russian) instead of
ARSENAL factory. The factory management, including the director of
factory, are totally changed. The workers are discharges, all
manufacturing is stopped, the factory storehouse is empty.

The good news is that we have bought the medium format cameras and
parts for several years of works and we'll keep our business running
at least 4-5 years more. So, you'll have ability to buy ARAX cameras
as usually with our one year worldwide warranty. In any case, you
will never be left alone with a problem from your ARAX cameras many
many many years.

Sincerely
Gevorg Vartanyan,
http://araxfoto.com/

Maybe you should try to buy the production machinery and documentation, hire a couple of their key employees, and continue production

Ralph Javins · Apr 23, 2010

Good morning;

And, just to further stir the pot to confuse things, a fellow was in Kiev, Ukraine about a month ago where he went to the Kiev Zavod Arsenal Factory Store, and bought a new Kiev 88CM with an 80mm f:2.8 lens and a 30mm Zodiak lens for it. Take a look at "New Kiev!" in "The Kiev Report" on Delphiforums, www.delphiforums.com He did say that they do not sell over the Internet; you must walk into the store.

If true, this may be an interesting twist to the previous reports that all of the cameras, lenses, and stock of parts had been sold.

It does seem that it is possible that we have another example of the news from the "FSU" being "subject to change at any time."

macheesemo · Apr 23, 2010

I'm lucky I bought a Kiev 60, as it directly caused me to purchase my Mamiya 645 1000s!

AgX · Dec 18, 2010

Я не розумію слова.

NJS · Dec 18, 2010

macheesemo said:
I'm lucky I bought a Kiev 60, as it directly caused me to purchase my Mamiya 645 1000s!

people usually tend to move up to larger formats, you know.

BrianL · Dec 18, 2010

I always liked the Russian cameras as they tend to be somewhat out of the box in design compared with the rest of the world. Also, they did not seem to worry about saving weight or cost and hence are marvels of the old world all metal school. But, to me they are like older British automobiles, full of personality, fun to use, attracts attention and sadly tend to see the repair tech more than their competition. Whenever I considered one, I remembered all the great times I had with my MG and sober up. My B only ran if I drove it every day; give it a day off and it had to be towed. My MG1100 on the other hand was very reliable once a tech who raced Minis got his hand on it and ripped it down and rebuilt it. Its only challenge was any day where there was a hint of fog. But, when they worked they broguht a big smile and it was worth the frustration. I decided my cameras had to not induce stress into my life.

Ezzie · Dec 18, 2010

AgX said:
Я не розумію слова.

I don't understand a word either.

@BrianL. I understand perfectly what you're on about. I run two Land Rovers, 36 and 57 years old. I don't do it for peace of mind. For that I have another car that just starts every day. And since I didn't, and still don't, need a camera to work all the time, when looking to get myself engulfed in the world of MF I did in fact contemplate a Kiev or an Arax or even a Pentacon. I ended up with another camera, known to be only marginally more reliable; the Kowa Super 66. I've not regretted it a moment. But i must admit I'd like another, just in case.

lxdude · Dec 18, 2010

It seems that ARAX was attempting to correct or ameliorate the quality problems with the Arsenal products. I had heard some good stuff about ARAX, though I never used their products.

mabman · Dec 18, 2010

lxdude said:
It seems that ARAX was attempting to correct or ameliorate the quality problems with the Arsenal products. I had heard some good stuff about ARAX, though I never used their products.

They do good work, although apparently the Ukr. Postal Service likes to play football with the packages. I sent them a Kiev 60 for a CLA - got an email back just over a week later saying I didn't pack it well enough and the camera's frame was now bent (I used bubble wrap and some packing material, usually that's fine in North America/Western Europe). No problem, for the price of a CLA they sent me back a new/refurbished body good to go

BrianL · Dec 18, 2010

For me the camera would be an addition to my Rolleiflex, Bronica and to a lesser degree the Leica. I'm on the other side of the table, I want a reliable camera when I pick it up but as far a a car goes, I simply have a backup in the driveway. I can miss a trip but never can make up for a missed image. Yeah, I'm a bit warped. I visited the sight after writing to see what was happening and it does seem like the owner is trying to make sure these are reliable and well finished. For the price, the risk is not that great as they are the price of a used mid-level camera or another laptop. The lenses and tilt adaptors seem interesting and I might be tempted to get a system for my Olympus E-520 as they have one for the 4/3rds system.

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2010

For me I see nothing to gain. I have a highly reliable system with the support of parts and service available. Why should I spend money to have an unreliable or semi-reliable camera system that can have me miss photographs unless I take my reliable system with me?

NJS · Dec 18, 2010

I frequently catch myself listing all the reasons why I should apart from all the excellent Zeiss DDR glass I own. But the list of all the reason why I shouldn't always wins.
One of the main reasons why these lenses are keepers, beside fantastic performance Flektogon 50/4 does and insane DoF Sonnar 180/2.8 gives, is free-lensing or, how I call it, hand-held tilt/shift. If I could afford myself Hass 203fe or 205fcc with couple of lenses I'd probably change my mind on selling these DDR gems.

Let's face it, every camera ever made has its flaws. if Pentax 67 or Hassie V or any other reliable were perfect those crafty repairmen would starve to death. That fact and add a bit of elitism and you got the whole myth going.

Adrian Twiss · Dec 19, 2010

I had an extensive Kiev 88 system for some time. It included both Zeiss and Schneider lenses made for the Exacta 66. (I also had Exacta 66 and Pentacon Six bodies). Mine was a Hartblei and was modified to use Hasselblad backs (something that Arax strongly advise against due to excessive strain on the film transport mechanism). I even went as far as installing a Hasselblad Acute Matte focussing screen). The only weakness in the entire system was the NT type back. One of mine developed spacing problems very quickly and another had one of the latches drop off. The old type film backs were reliable. Although I never had any problems (apart form the two bad film backs) I always had a nagging doubt at the back of my mind as to whether it would die on me suddenly. The lenses (especially the Schneiders) were excellent performers and compared very favourably with the Bronica lenses I now own. In fact the only weak camera in my collection was the Pentacon Six Body. Film loading was a bit of a dark art. It also needed a bright screen and adapted Prism from a Kiev 60 to make it anywhere reasonable to use. I'm sorry to hear that Arsenal has now gone but when the cost of MF gear dropped through the floor the writing was on the wall.

AgX · Dec 19, 2010

Were soviet cameras ever marketed in the USA during soviet times ??

polka · Dec 19, 2010

Both my "Araxen" work well :
1/ black with textile shutter curtains and 1 6x6 and 1 645 backs (with 80mm/2.8 MC Arsat)
2/ chrome with titanium shutter curtains and 1 6x6 and 1 645 backs (with 80mm/2.8 CZJ Biometar)
Had a problem only with one 645 back (too hard film transport), sent it back and got it well adjusted
All four (NT) backs can be used with both bodies : focusing well adjusted, no leaks, no spacing issues
Could buy a lot of cheap Kiev lenses : 30mm, 45mm, 150mm, 250mm, 2x converter, macro rings.

Am I lucky ?

Paul

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 19, 2010

I tried 250 , its an excellent lens , sonnar design .

Q.G. · Dec 19, 2010

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I tried 250 , its an excellent lens , sonnar design .

Long time ago, i bought a Zeiss f/5.6 250 mm Sonnar for pennies, because it was advertised as a Kiev lens, and not the early Hasselblad lens it is.
So sometimes, their bad reputation makes Kiev cameras quite likeable.

snederhiser · Dec 19, 2010

Hello;
I have several K60's and most of the lenses and have had good luck. I am lucky that I work on my camera's and can keep them running. But every camera that I have has needed work. This includes Mamiya, Yashica, Graflex, and etc. A point to consider when buying equipment. Steven.

ARSENAL factory is History -- Kiev is dead, long live Kievs

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