Arkay Dual Dri 150 Folding Prints

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 13, 2023

I just ran some prints through my Dual Dri 150 and the leading edge of them was totally folded back into the print. At first I thought this was happening when the print was entering the drum but I took a dry print and ran it through watching it...the leading edge was folded again. Any idea why this may have happened? I recently swapped out the canvas but it's running well.

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 13, 2023

Ok, I think the print is hitting the squeegee stage and bending back. It does not fold when I disengage the squeegee.

mshchem · Dec 13, 2023

I use a couple Pako dryers. I dry glossy paper, emulsion side towards the belt. I ALWAYS use a hardener with prints that are dried on these machines. Depending on the paper prints without hardener can stick and end up going through a second time and get destroyed. If you want to ferrotype, you need to, harden, wax/clean/polish the drum and use a print flattening solution like Pakosol. These dryers are great, you need to be careful not to contaminate the belt. Belts can be hand washed. A couple years ago I got in touch with Pakon, they were still able to supply me with new cloth belts.

Sirius Glass · Dec 13, 2023

NortheastPhotographic said:
I just ran some prints through my Dual Dri 150 and the leading edge of them was totally folded back into the print. At first I thought this was happening when the print was entering the drum but I took a dry print and ran it through watching it...the leading edge was folded again. Any idea why this may have happened? I recently swapped out the canvas but it's running well.

NortheastPhotographic said:
Ok, I think the print is hitting the squeegee stage and bending back. It does not fold when I disengage the squeegee.

I have the same dryer, Arkay Dual Dri 150, but I did not have that problem. What I noticed is that the built in squeegee seemed to do nothing useful when it was engaged, so I use a print roller on the paper with the paper on a large sheet of glass. That makes a more uniformly dried print.

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 14, 2023

I also noticed some bits of fibers on my prints after running them through the drier. My canvas is brand new. Just wondering if there is a cleaning sheet or some method for getting more pristine prints out of the dryer? I'm not ferrotyping or anything like that, I am using it for expediency and also because I lack a dry mount press for flattening fiber prints.

mshchem · Dec 14, 2023

NortheastPhotographic said:
I also noticed some bits of fibers on my prints after running them through the drier. My canvas is brand new. Just wondering if there is a cleaning sheet or some method for getting more pristine prints out of the dryer? I'm not ferrotyping or anything like that, I am using it for expediency and also because I lack a dry mount press for flattening fiber prints.

Hardener helps with the fiber being stuck in the emulsion. If the gelatin is swollen and soft it's more susceptible to adhering to the canvas. Squeegee the back of the print on a flat surface before putting on the dryer, I have a squeegee board setup for this. New belts are worse. If you have fibers in the print a microfiber cloth gentle rubbing on the print will remove them. I would go crazy without print dryers, RC and fiber base. Only use hardener on fiber base that you are going to dry mechanically.

mshchem · Dec 14, 2023

NortheastPhotographic said:
I just ran some prints through my Dual Dri 150 and the leading edge of them was totally folded back into the print. At first I thought this was happening when the print was entering the drum but I took a dry print and ran it through watching it...the leading edge was folded again. Any idea why this may have happened? I recently swapped out the canvas but it's running well.

One other observation. My Pako can fold over the corner of a print if I don't make sure that the print is absolutely flat as it enters the machine. I always make sure it's started before I walk away.

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 14, 2023

mshchem said:
Hardener helps with the fiber being stuck in the emulsion. If the gelatin is swollen and soft it's more susceptible to adhering to the canvas. Squeegee the back of the print on a flat surface before putting on the dryer, I have a squeegee board setup for this. New belts are worse. If you have fibers in the print a microfiber cloth gentle rubbing on the print will remove them. I would go crazy without print dryers, RC and fiber base. Only use hardener on fiber base that you are going to dry mechanically.

Since I use TF5 and am pretty happy with it, is there any way to use a hardener as a separate bath or add a hardener to a non-hardening fix? If I get a standard rapid fix with hardener then I have to go back to using hypo clear prior to a wash.

MattKing · Dec 14, 2023

If you use Kodak Rapid fixer - the 1 litre/quart packaging - the hardener is in a separate small bottle, which you can set aside or mix in, as you wish.
If you set it aside, you can use it separately. Mix it up at 1:13 with water and you will have a hardening bath.
I use a hardening bath when I use some toners.
I've never found any information about the capacity of the hardening bath.

mshchem · Dec 14, 2023

Yeah, I am in agreement with Matt on using the "extra" hardener from KRF after toners. Also Kodak formulas for hardeners are available.
My old Kodak books were adamant about hardeners with mechanical driers. I remember when I first used Ilford rapid fixer w/o any hardener with my Pako. What a mess, I couldn't figure it out. Finally found some references in old books and a book Kodak published in the late 20th century about hardener and belt drying.

When RC paper appeared these old machines were scrapped, at the same time the archival hysteria came into full bloom, thanks to East Street Gallery in Grinnell Iowa selling archival washers and drying screens, the rest is history.

Vaughn · Dec 14, 2023

Without hardener I would get screen marks imbedded in the print emulsion from just laying the carefully squeegeed prints face-down on the screens (16x20 graded paper, Agfa and Ilford). I went with 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended amount of the Fix B of Kodak Rapid Fixer and had no problems like that again.

mshchem · Dec 14, 2023

Vaughn said:
Without hardener I would get screen marks imbedded in the print emulsion from just laying the carefully squeegeed prints face-down on the screens (16x20 graded paper, Agfa and Ilford). I went with 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended amount of the Fix B of Kodak Rapid Fixer and had no problems like that again.

Perfect!

Vaughn · Dec 14, 2023

I was so glad when we got rid of the huge Pako drum drier. No more baths of pakosol, no more students deciding not to wash their prints because they weren't going to keep them anyway, no belt running off one way or the other, no prints (RC face to the drum) to deal with, and on and on...We gained a lot of working space -- and quiet. The darkroom was open 8am to midnite everyday (125 students) and I ran it with a wild variety of volunteers to cover the 80 hrs of open lab...twenty or so students. They got the keys to the darkroom. A lot of creativity going on. But they had to put their washed prints on the screens. RC face up, Fiber face down.

mshchem · Dec 14, 2023

Vaughn said:
I was so glad when we got rid of the huge Pako drum drier. No more baths of pakosol, no more students deciding not to wash their prints because they weren't going to keep them anyway, no belt running off one way or the other, no prints (RC face to the drum) to deal with, and on and on...We gained a lot of working space -- and quiet. The darkroom was open 8am to midnite everyday (125 students) and I ran it with a wild variety of volunteers to cover the 80 hrs of open lab...twenty or so students. They got the keys to the darkroom. A lot of creativity going on. But they had to put their washed prints on the screens. RC face up, Fiber face down.

Even when I took a photo class in college as an elective I would print when I managed to get home on occasions or weekends. The Art Department darkroom was immense and so sloppy. I couldn't stand it. I wouldn't use a belt dryer that anyone else had access to.

Vaughn · Dec 15, 2023

Often the assignments were due on the same day for several classes. The night before would be a mad-house...19 enlargers in use until lights-on at 11pm, two lines of processing chemicals dying right and left, print washer never turned off, classroom a mess with people mounting prints...and a couple wishful-thinkers still developing film for their assignments.
The advance and independent-study students knew to stay away...Friday and Saturday nites could be great times to work. You get a good group of people working respectfully together, with feedback if one wants it.

When I was just volunteering, I opened the darkroom officially at 10am Sunday mornings. I'd get there at 7am, set up the chemicals, and print by myself until the first students showed up closer to noon. I could nail one 16x20 print in that time if it was relatively straight forward, or at least get a good handle on it.

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 15, 2023

I understand how people could have bad relationships with belt dryers in a school or gang darkroom but I am the owner of this darkroom, the belt is brand new, and no-one else uses it. I'm pretty confident I can keep it clean!

Vaughn · Dec 15, 2023

I wandered off the topic with my past 'issues'! Good luck with your machine! Sounds like the the folding is under control.

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 15, 2023

Heico Hardener for NH-5 Fixer for B&W Film and Paper - 12 oz.

Heico Hardener for NH-5 Fixer for B&W Film and Paper - 12 oz. - Heico Hardener 3oz for NH5 Fixer is a stable, ready-to-use photographic rapid fixing agent; Heico Hardener is designed for use with the Heico NH-5.Hardener is designed…

www.freestylephoto.com

It looks like Heico sells independent hardener additives. I just wonder about the added wash time or other aspects like that... Maybe I should just relent and get the Kodak product. But I would totally miss the 1 minute fix time!

mshchem · Dec 16, 2023

NortheastPhotographic said:
Heico Hardener for NH-5 Fixer for B&W Film and Paper - 12 oz.

Heico Hardener for NH-5 Fixer for B&W Film and Paper - 12 oz. - Heico Hardener 3oz for NH5 Fixer is a stable, ready-to-use photographic rapid fixing agent; Heico Hardener is designed for use with the Heico NH-5.Hardener is designed…

www.freestylephoto.com

It looks like Heico sells independent hardener additives. I just wonder about the added wash time or other aspects like that... Maybe I should just relent and get the Kodak product. But I would totally miss the 1 minute fix time!

Washing double weight fiber as much about getting chemistry out of the paper base as the emulsion. I use Kodak rapid fixer with hardener, film dilution (makes 1 gallon), 1 minute, constant agitation, 68°F, then a quick rinse, into Kodak Hypo clearing agent for 1 minute, then straight into Kodak rapid selenium toner mixed with Hypo clearing agent until you get the tone you want. Then it goes into a separate Hypo clearing agent bath for a few minutes (2-3), then a good rinse in running water for 30 seconds then into archival washer.
My washers are setup with mag drive recirculation pumps from Noritsu/Fuji color processors. I let it run with 6 to 8 prints for 15-20 minutes, drain refill and repeat, 3 or 4 times.
Works great the pumps run higher flow rates, much like a color processor, gives great washing. When establishing your routine check for residual hypo with Kodak Hypo test reagent.

mshchem · Dec 16, 2023

PS use absolutely fresh fixer or 2 fixer baths 1 minute each. You can indeed use a hardener after toning but I don't want to add another step.

NortheastPhotographic · Dec 27, 2023

mshchem said:
PS use absolutely fresh fixer or 2 fixer baths 1 minute each. You can indeed use a hardener after toning but I don't want to add another step.

I'm a little confused now. The instructions for Kodak Rapid Fix w/ Hardener indicate a 10 minute fix time for fiber papers. You're saying I should do 1 minute? 10 minutes does seem excessive.

mshchem · Dec 27, 2023

NortheastPhotographic said:
I'm a little confused now. The instructions for Kodak Rapid Fix w/ Hardener indicate a 10 minute fix time for fiber papers. You're saying I should do 1 minute? 10 minutes does seem excessive.

My uneducated interpretation of Ilford's archival processing technique, short time strong fixer has led me to believe, again uneducated, that a short bath in film strength Kodak rapid fixer w hardener does the same thing. I always use fresh fixer, always agitate CONSTANTLY, I only use hardener for fiber base prints that I will dry on my Pako 1968 (ish, I have 3 of them) dryer.

I have never ferrotyped on these machines, then one needs Pakosol or Kodak Print Flattening Solution, Ferrotype plate wax etc etc.

Kodak didn't update paper processing instructions like Ilford did.

I've been working this way for years, I always use hypo clearing agent and wash in an archival washer.

A LOT of assumptions on my part. Scientific wild ass guess

Arkay Dual Dri 150 Folding Prints

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