Arista Ortho Litho 3.0 film with Ilford MG paper developer

Fatih Ayoglu · May 25, 2023

Hi all,

As I have written before, I am trying to learn masking technique and one skill I need to learn is, developing Ortho Lith films, in my particular case, it is Arita Litho 3.0 film

I am watching Naked Photographer and he has recommending a highly diluted paper developer in such 1:40 Dektol.

What does it equate this in Ilford MG developer for continuous tone, which is required for masking.

Many thanks,
Fatih

Rudeofus · May 26, 2023

If I look at D-72 or Dektol stock solution, it contains 12 g/l Hydroquinone, the one and determining development agent. Looking at the MSDS of Ilford MG developer, its concentrate contains somewhere between 10 and 50 g/l Hydroquinone. Dektol is frequently diluted 1+1, 1+2 or 1+3, whereas Ilford MG developer recommends 1+9. Therefore I would expect that Ilford MG concentrate to be about 2-3 times more concentrated than Dektol stock solution.

If my assumptions are correct, then Ilford MG 1:100 should be comparable to Dektol 1:40. They may behave differently, but probably not very much so.

Fatih Ayoglu · May 26, 2023

Rudeofus said:
If I look at D-72 or Dektol stock solution, it contains 12 g/l Hydroquinone, the one and determining development agent. Looking at the MSDS of Ilford MG developer, its concentrate contains somewhere between 10 and 50 g/l Hydroquinone. Dektol is frequently diluted 1+1, 1+2 or 1+3, whereas Ilford MG developer recommends 1+9. Therefore I would expect that Ilford MG concentrate to be about 2-3 times more concentrated than Dektol stock solution.

If my assumptions are correct, then Ilford MG 1:100 should be comparable to Dektol 1:40. They may behave differently, but probably not very much so.

Thank you so much, you have approached the subject very chemically

I have done some math, not quite sure if it is right but here it is;

Dektol 1+2 gives 1 min paper development, and Gregory uses 1+40, so 20x more water
Ilford 1+9 gives 1 min paper development, so if we take 20x more water, it would make 1+180

What do you think? (I mean I guess the used chemistry is so low, I can probably try this very quickly)

Rudeofus · May 26, 2023

There are two methods to describe a dilution ratio: 1:n vs. 1+m You can convert these two through m = n+1, i.e. 1+2 = 1:3, and 1+9 = 1:10. These two notations are very similar for high dilutions, but differ substantially for small dilutions.

Therefore if you really meant Dektol 1+2, then 1 liter Dektol stock was converted to 3 liters of working solution. Likewise Ilford 1+9 would mean, that 1 liter Ilford MG was diluted to make 10 liters of working solution. This would mean, that Dektol 1:40 (i.e. Dektol 1+39) is only 13 times as dilute as Dektol 1:3 (i.e. Dektol 1+2), and that you'd have to dilute Ilford MG only 1:130 to match that dilution. These 1:130 are not that far off from the 1:100 from my original guess, so I'd say: "we're at least in the ball park".

Fatih Ayoglu · Jul 21, 2023

Rudeofus said:
There are two methods to describe a dilution ratio: 1:n vs. 1+m You can convert these two through m = n+1, i.e. 1+2 = 1:3, and 1+9 = 1:10. These two notations are very similar for high dilutions, but differ substantially for small dilutions.

Therefore if you really meant Dektol 1+2, then 1 liter Dektol stock was converted to 3 liters of working solution. Likewise Ilford 1+9 would mean, that 1 liter Ilford MG was diluted to make 10 liters of working solution. This would mean, that Dektol 1:40 (i.e. Dektol 1+39) is only 13 times as dilute as Dektol 1:3 (i.e. Dektol 1+2), and that you'd have to dilute Ilford MG only 1:130 to match that dilution. These 1:130 are not that far off from the 1:100 from my original guess, so I'd say: "we're at least in the ball park".

Hi,

This is from wikipedia:
For example, in a solution with a 1:5 dilution ratio, entails combining 1 unit volume of solute (the material to be diluted) with 5 unit volumes of the solvent to give 6 total units of total volume.

In photographic development, dilutions are normally given in a '1+x' format. For example '1+49' would typically mean 1 part concentrate and 49 parts water, meaning a 500ml solution would require 10ml concentrate and 490ml water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_ratio

So according to this 1:5 means 1 part concentrate, 5 part water to make 6 part in total

So is 1+49 means 1 part concentrate and 40 parts water to make 50 part in total

Am I missing something? or wikipedia is wrong

koraks · Jul 21, 2023

Fatih Ayoglu said:
So is 1+49 means 1 part concentrate and 40 parts water to make 50 part in total

49 parts water!
You'll notice that the difference between 1:50 and 1+50 isn't very significant if you test them side by side.

Fatih Ayoglu · Jul 21, 2023

koraks said:
49 parts water!
You'll notice that the difference between 1:50 and 1+50 isn't very significant if you test them side by side.

No I understand that, but the difference would be significant if it is 1:2 vs 1+2

I mean I have used always 1+n as 1 part concentrate n part water but according to wiki, it is same as 1:n

MattKing · Jul 21, 2023

Fatih Ayoglu said:
Am I missing something? or wikipedia is wrong

There is a third possibility 1:4 and 1+ 3 mean the same thing in environments where that is the/a standard way of defining dilutions.
It is entirely a matter of context and standard practice - and the standard is different in different areas.
In the world of Photography, particularly in the USA but also in a bunch of the rest of the world, a lot of "standards" come from Kodak documentation, and historically much of the Kodak documentation uses that equivalency, rather than the Wikipedia one. In most cases though, in that Kodak documentation, the short form 1:4 is accompanied by a description in words - something like "to one quart of stock add water to bring the total volume of working solution to one gallon (4 quarts)"

DREW WILEY · Jul 21, 2023

I don't know how I missed this thread earlier. In my experience, Dektol, despite being commonly prescribed, is a downright miserable choice of developer for con-tone Arista Ortho Litho purposes. It tend to go blotchy and leaves a lot of fog. What I have had much better luck with is HC-110 diluted 1:15 from stock (not concentrate), roughly equivalent to Dilution E. But for even lower contrast masking purposes, you might want to test even more dilute Dil. F. And if necessary, HC-110 will work reliably at even greater dilution than that.

Rudeofus · Jul 23, 2023

Fatih Ayoglu said:
This is from wikipedia:
For example, in a solution with a 1:5 dilution ratio, entails combining 1 unit volume of solute (the material to be diluted) with 5 unit volumes of the solvent to give 6 total units of total volume.

Wikipedia article describes two terms: "dilution ratio" and "dilution factor". Interestingly both are denoted in the same way as 1:n. "Dilution ratio" 1:n means 1 part concentrate and n parts solvent, which corresponds to my 1+n notation. "Dilution factor" 1:n means 1 part concentrate and (n-1) parts solvent to make n parts diluted soup, which corresponds to my 1:n notation.

Yes, it's confusing.

Fatih Ayoglu · Jul 23, 2023

Moving away from confusing Wikipedia article, my tests yesterday has yielded good results. 1+120 Ilford MG developer produces good soft contrast images on Arista Orthodox film at 2 min development. Also it does not create a base fog, I’ve tested this with densitometer, reading 0 and also I’ve fixed a film without any developer and film base looks identical to me.

ole-squint · Nov 29, 2023

I develop Arista lith film in Ilford PQ Universal developer diluted 1:19, per Ilford's directions. Comes out really nice. I use the lith film in film holders (5x7, 8x10), and make lith negs from smaller formats by printing a variable contrast positive to size (using lower contrast filters and developed in Ilford PQ at 1:9), then contact print that with Arista lith film, again developed in PQ 1;19 for alt processes.

Fatih Ayoglu · Nov 30, 2023

ole-squint said:
I develop Arista lith film in Ilford PQ Universal developer diluted 1:19, per Ilford's directions. Comes out really nice. I use the lith film in film holders (5x7, 8x10), and make lith negs from smaller formats by printing a variable contrast positive to size (using lower contrast filters and developed in Ilford PQ at 1:9), then contact print that with Arista lith film, again developed in PQ 1;19 for alt processes.

Thank you for your reply. I have moved from Ilford MG as well and acquired PQ. I use it with dilution 1:100 to have a really low contrast and low DMax positive of the negative (max Dmax is around 0.2) to create contrast and/or unsharp masks. A 2 minute development time works well for the time being.

ole-squint · Dec 3, 2023

Fatih Ayoglu said:
Thank you for your reply. I have moved from Ilford MG as well and acquired PQ. I use it with dilution 1:100 to have a really low contrast and low DMax positive of the negative (max Dmax is around 0.2) to create contrast and/or unsharp masks. A 2 minute development time works well for the time being.

Interesting. I'll keep that procedure in mind.

Arista Ortho Litho 3.0 film with Ilford MG paper developer

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Arista Ortho Litho 3.0 film with Ilford MG paper developer

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