Lachlan Young
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That makes me assume you've never used Ansco 130.
Fomabrom Variant 111, It's a non-supercoated paper
On the other hand, Phenidone and derivatives
It isn't particularly difficult to get what people with very limited experience imagine can only be possible with 130 with other developers using very conventional ingredients.
Is this a good paper for Carbro?
I use Fomatone MG-WT-132 fibre and if you do it right - it's beautiful.
I do sometimes use Formalin Hardner (be careful, is very toxic), sadly here in Portugal chrome alum is almost impossible to find, and formaldehyde is very cheap and readily available. It does add some strength to the emulsion, and wouldn't use it if I'm planning to spot, but it doesn't turn gelatin into plastic, nor makes it impossible to work on.It would seem that an added hardener would make SpotTone etc dye retouching and spotting more difficult (??)
We just need to go back another 70 years or so and DIY whatever alt process paper we want. Yes, we need to enlarge our negatives to contact size so do this sparingly with only our best works. So called carbon printing is the cadillac with the most linear response of any paper and widest choice of image and ground color, since it's made DIY. Cyanotypes, VanDykes, Kalitypes and other printing on water color paper processes for true matte surfaces and gelatin free printing. Sky is the limit for DIY.I’d love to hear how people are dealing with the current landscape.
Are you happy with the available papers? Have you found workarounds? Or are you feeling the same sense of loss for those older, magical surfaces?
Looking forward to your thoughts.
For those who care about print materiality (which is a different thing from those with visions of magic papers from a past that never was), it's spectacular. And it bleaches, tones etc very well. I just wish there was enough demand to coat it on the base colour of 532. Same with Retrobrom's base colour, though I understand the desire to pay tribute to papers of the past that had a connection with Sudek and the like.
The Harman made Bergger warmtone semi-gloss is also very good in a similar-ish vein. The Harman made WT that was done for Moersch was also excellent, but seemed to suffer from an audience who apparently stamped their feet (or who were going to stamp their feet, no matter what, and never intended to buy it anyway) that it wasn't an exact replica of Polywarmtone.
Compared to only having Record Rapid/ Portriga in 3-4 grades and a few 'portrait' type papers in a single grade, there are some considerably more flexible papers on the market now.
But there's no phenidone in D163. It's an MQ developer - not much different from Dektol. I don't assume I know more than the Kodak, Ilford, Agfa researchers. Glycin has a problematic shelf life and is difficult to dissolve - it's not a great powder to have mixed into an off-the-shelf (or by-the-barrel) developer (which are the types of products those researchers were interested in).
There are plenty of people with very extensive experience that think Ansco 130 gives them something they can't get from anything else. I'll refrain from responding appropriately to your particularly condescending way of phrasing that.
Incidentally, D163 seems to have been marketed mainly as a tropical paper developer.
D-163 is very different from Dektol, specifically in the MQ ratio. The coincidences it has with Ansco 130's formula are far too close to be really coincidental
the people at Ansco would have likely figured that out
Or maybe those Kodak people knew that glycin powder doesn't have a very long shelf life
D163 diluted for use is very similar to Dektol diluted for use except for the added hydroquinone. It was marketed for tropical use.
They were in the region of 10 years behind Kodak, going by some of the accounts that have been published. Kodak, Ilford etc had more significant in-house synthesis capacity (and interest), Agfa (and by extension, Ansco pre-1941) seemed rather reliant on being intimately linked to the German chemical industry. Post-1945, this changed, and most of the manufacturers in the west invested heavily in acquiring much more significant in-house capabilities.
Agfa/ Ansco managed to get the stuff to survive OK in 130 packaged in tins. If Glycin really made a difference, you can bet that Kodak would have found a way to make it cheaper and better protected from oxidation. They were very, very aware of all the cult chemicals that the garden shed formulators obsess over today (Glycin, Pyrogallol, Catechol, Amidol), and none of them were really up to the job that the fanciful home formulators of the very late 20th century imagined them to be. Kodak used them (pyrogallol and catechol) where they made a meaningfully functional difference (if something less toxic wouldn't do the job - and in some cases only persisted in doing so because the less toxic alternatives had not been commercialised due to ending basic research on the particular product line), and nowhere else. There were some much more complex customised organics that do seem to have been of interest, but overall, without massive expenditure on synthesis, the reality is that PQ can do a huge amount, it just requires a precision that may be lacking in home formulation, and in commercial terms, the developer had to appeal to the largest market possible - thus ratios that might be worth exploring for specific outcomes, might be dismissed as not commercially viable.
And, like with Henn's contemporaneous work at Eastman Kodak, who in formulating D-23/25/ Microdol had realised that there were no special/ toxic ingredients needed to make very fine grain development a safe reality, Levenson at al seem to have realised that there was no point in adding extraneous (and readily available) components whose functions merely equated to approx 50% greater quantity of HQ.
For the record, Levenson seems to have been the specialist in the characteristics of superadditivity (and where it fails).
It is probable that it was formulated to replace supplies of Agfa/ Ansco 130 (pre-expropriation in 1941, where do you think the money was flowing to?) that was being used in the UK sphere of operations with tropical climates. Kodak Ltd later marketed it in preference to Dektol for a long time.
And it wasn't because of a lack of Glycin supply. May and Baker were using it in some of their developers (and they had given up on researching products using it by the mid 1950s too, going by the patent record).
The only real outcome that is important is that differences in the ratio of Metol/ Phenidones to source of semiquinones can make some degree of visually significant differences in print tone (but not enough for Eastman Kodak to have chosen to market D-163 - but they did produce a variety of other commercial developers than Dektol in the post WW2 era). Before making assumptions about similarity to Dektol, the M:Q ratio is what matters (which was one of the key insights of Levenson's work). That has essentially apparently long been understood by the mainstream of the industry and not adequately communicated outside. Possibly because it's not very marketable to the easily influenced if your developers don't contain anything other than Metol/ Phenidones and HQ/ HQMS/ Ascorbate.
For those who want to experiment, Levenson disclosed useful M:Q and P:Q ratios (including for Dimezone S) and their relevant pH ranges.
For those who want to experiment
So, have you used Ansco 130? You never said.
And - anyone - does anyone have evidence Agfa or Ansco sold commercial packs of Ansco 130? I can't find a single thing about it. Agfa sold Glycin - I can find ample evidence of that. But nowhere is there an image of a package of Ansco or Agfa 130.
I guess it should work well for carbro/ozobrome (I've been willing to try for some months).
"GAF 130 Universal Paper Developer"
There's only one reference to that online - a book of photographic formulas. It doesn't mention it's available to buy anywhere.
Where did you ever see any reference to Ansco or GAF 130 for sale, other than by Photographers Formulary (as in from Agfa, Ansco, or GAF)?
Ansel Adams had his own version, made from scratch. And he makes no mention of anything other than Ansco 130 being a formula. (He does mention D72 is similar to Dektol.)
(There's also only one reference to "Ansco 130 Universal Paper Developer" - right here on this forum.)
Likely it was from an AI summary.
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