Are there really so few choices?

Donald Qualls · Oct 4, 2020

I've been shopping around, looking for color negative films in 120 -- after a rather long time shooting only B&W in that format, aside from a few rolls I was given (Fuji Press 800, pre-discontinuance Ektachrome 100, maybe a couple rolls of Portra of some flavor), I'm down to nearly nothing in color for 120.

And I'm finding there are hardly any choices for color negative in 120. Kodak has their two Portra films, and Ektar. Fuji appears to offer nothing but chromes in 120 (at least at the dealers I've checked, Freestyle and Adorama so far). And 4x5 is even worse -- one flavor of Portra and three (four?) Fuji chrome choices.

There are so many B&W choices today, ranging from "consumer" films like Foma (that you can't get processed locally unless you live in a major city) to top-end Kodak and Ilford, formats from 16mm cine up to ULF -- how can the films you can actually drop off at Walmart or CVS (and wait a week for outsource processing, yes, but at least drop off locally without having to figure out how to mail a roll of film safely) be down to nothing but "professional" films outside of 35mm? And those only from one manufacturer?

What I've seen for C-41 in 120: Portra 160, 400, and 800. Ektar 100. XP-2 Super (not color, but C-41).

Yes, 35mm is an easier/cheaper/lighter entry to film for those just discovering it or coming back to the dark side -- but is the color market that lopsided? For Kodak to offer literally twice as many choices (one consumer film for each professional choice), and Fuji to service only 35mm in color negative?

BradS · Oct 4, 2020

Be aware that the C41 service at Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Rite-Aide, etc. does NOT return the negatives.

and they very likely DO NOT do 120 roll films either.

Alan9940 · Oct 4, 2020

Yep, color film choices in 120 are certainly limited nowadays, but I pray that Kodak doesn't take my Portra 400 away!

Donald Qualls · Oct 4, 2020

BradS said:
Be aware that the C41 service at Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Rite-Aide, etc. does NOT return the negatives.

and they very likely DO NOT do 120 roll films either.

I'm not concerned about that -- I process my own C-41 and expect to make my first RA-4 prints from those negatives by late November.

However, I see that as a symptom of the downfall of 120. Fewer choices even in B&W than 35mm, and hardly any color options. Reminds me of why Costco didn't carry Michelob Ultra -- "Slow seller" was their response when I asked, to which I could only reply, "how can you sell something you don't even have?"

Yes, costs and corporate financial failures. But we're perilously close to having no color negative films available in 120. One supplier, four products.

I don't want to be forced to shoot 35mm if I want to make color images (not to mention that the only practical way to feed 127 and 828 cameras these days is to cut down 120).

BradS · Oct 4, 2020

What is it precisely that you are complaining about? Are you suggesting that the current offerings are unsatisfactory? That you cannot make the photos you want to make with at least one of them?

AgX · Oct 4, 2020

Maco still lists their Agfa Aviphot CN type 120 conversions (though most as currently not available). Maybe they will changeover to Kodak aerial film.

WillofTheWilds · Oct 4, 2020

I hear you. 35mm has always been very popular and now with so many people discovering/new to film even more so.

Wedding and portrait shooters still go through a large amount of c41. Those don't look like they are going anywhere

Here are a few more:

Fujifilm: pro 400h, pro 160ns (order from amazon Japan for 160)
Lomography: 100 (sometimes 400 and 800) they also offer specialty films in 120 like lomochrome purple

Agulliver · Oct 4, 2020

If you don't like Portra, try Fuji 400H or 160N

Also the Lomography branded 100, 400 and 800 films (not always available) are thought to be 90s Kodacolor formula.

And then there is Ektar, which is beautiful in it's own way when you want bright colours. Flower gardens shot on Ektar in MF are a thing of beauty.

Lachlan Young · Oct 4, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Kodak has their two Portra films, and Ektar. Fuji appears to offer nothing but chromes in 120

Kodak: Ektar, Portra 160, 400 and 800
Fuji: Pro 400H
Lomography: 100, 400, 800 (and several other more eccentric ones)

Donald Qualls · Oct 4, 2020

I hadn't seen Fuji 400H listed in 120 where I've looked -- at least I don't feel I've missed something by not looking in Japan for the Fuji 160N. Must have missed the Portra 800 in 120 as well. And I totally forgot Lomography, probably because it's not available where I usually buy film. IIRC, it's also priced like/above Kodak professional stocks.

BradS said:
What is it precisely that you are complaining about? Are you suggesting that the current offerings are unsatisfactory? That you cannot make the photos you want to make with at least one of them?

Not complaining, so much as bemoaning. Fuji used to match Kodak product for product, and vice versa -- that is, Fuji had several C-41 emulsion choices in 120, and Kodak had several chromes available. Fuji, at least, appears to have maintained its financial health, but apparently they see a limited market for 120 color negative -- or their market research says North America only needs 400H.

Auer · Oct 4, 2020

CineStill 800T, never used it in 120 tho.

Donald Qualls · Oct 4, 2020

Yep, you're right -- Cinestill offers all three of the Visions3 emulsions in 120 (with a little sprocket hole at the edges, since it's cut down from 70mm cine film).

cmacd123 · Oct 4, 2020

That is why some of us are still really pulling for the guys in nothern Italy.. even if it clear that they job is much bigger then they anticipated. Buy some P30 in 35mm, lurk on their web site for P30 in 120. rejoice if they manage 4X5 even if it is on Cine base.

AgX · Oct 4, 2020

But Film Ferrania did not announce a colour negative film in type 120.

cmacd123 · Oct 4, 2020

AgX said:
But Film Ferrania did not announce a colour negative film in type 120.

no that have not gotten any where close to that YET. they are not looking at reviving their colour film until they get the B&W line humming along.

Вormental_old · Oct 5, 2020

I didn't realize Lomo offers non-defective color films in 120, this is great. I haven't done much color, but based on my limited experimentation, the professional line (perhaps with the exception of Portra 160) from Kodak and Fuji is just too sterile, I prefer Gold, Ultramax and Superia rendering, they scream "film look" to me, but they aren't available in 120. I hope Lomo 400 and 800 are similar.

wyofilm · Oct 5, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
at least I don't feel I've missed something by not looking in Japan for the Fuji 160N

Not the traditionally way of buying film, but Fuji Pro 160NS can be purchased from US reseller on Ebay. Albeit, more expensively. This thread prompted me to purchase some and give it a try.

Donald Qualls · Oct 5, 2020

It occurred to me after starting this thread that I do also have the option to shoot E-6. Home processing kits aren't hard to come by, and Cinestill offers three different first developers to give slightly different final results -- and then I can still print the resulting transparencies by reversing RA-4 paper (same way Joe van Cleave and others do for one-off, in-camera direct positives). Develop in Dektol, light expose, then redevelop in RA-4 before standard blix step. Adjust filter pack as needed; control contrast with first dev (switch from Dektol to Selectol Soft, for instance), or color saturation like adjusting RA-4 contrast with sulfite and peroxide.

E-6 is more expensive, and costs more to process, but the option does exist -- which adds all the Provia and Velvia offerings in 120 (even 4x5), as well as the revived Ektachrome.

PhotoJim · Oct 5, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
It occurred to me after starting this thread that I do also have the option to shoot E-6. Home processing kits aren't hard to come by, and Cinestill offers three different first developers to give slightly different final results -- and then I can still print the resulting transparencies by reversing RA-4 paper (same way Joe van Cleave and others do for one-off, in-camera direct positives). Develop in Dektol, light expose, then redevelop in RA-4 before standard blix step. Adjust filter pack as needed; control contrast with first dev (switch from Dektol to Selectol Soft, for instance), or color saturation like adjusting RA-4 contrast with sulfite and peroxide.

E-6 is more expensive, and costs more to process, but the option does exist -- which adds all the Provia and Velvia offerings in 120 (even 4x5), as well as the revived Ektachrome.

Not sure how pure you want to keep your process, but it would possibly be practical to digitally make an internegative from a transparency, too.

koraks · Oct 5, 2020

Donald, while the E6 to RA4 route works in principle, it's about an order of magnitude more difficult to get good prints this way than from c41 negatives. I'd really start with c41 and ra4 and only once you get the trick see if you can (and want to!) spin it around to e6.
Btw, Portra and Ektar are magnificently good films I'm sure Fuji 400H is too, and I've seen quite decent results from the non-weirdo Lomo c41 films as well. Yes,choices are limited, but the options we do have are good ones. No need for worries about that at this moment.

Donald Qualls · Oct 5, 2020

@koraks Well, I was kind of hoping there were "consumer films" in 120. I've seen shooting Superia X-tra in 35mm for a long time (used to get it cheap at Costco), and never had any reason to want something "better". Eight bucks a roll is a little steep when it's only 8-10-12-16 frames...

koraks · Oct 5, 2020

Oh yeah, I feel your pain. I'd love to have superia in 120. Then again, I have to be honest to myself - how many rolls of 120 do I really shoot? Maybe 1 to 2 per month. Its different if you munch through 5 rolls a week or more.

PhotoJim · Oct 5, 2020

I'm lucky I still have some Superia 100 in 120 in my freezer. But when it's gone...

Donald Qualls · Oct 5, 2020

Well, based on my recent processing and shooting, I could get through a roll of two of 120 color a month. There are times when I want to shoot color -- and then I'm forced to shoot 35mm, or use one of the three or four rolls of 120 color negative film I have on hand (from ten-plus years ago). I can buy consumer color at local Walgreens or CVS (or could as recently as a couple years ago, haven't looked this year) -- but only in 35mm.

Kind of self-fulfilling, though -- if they don't make it, no one buys it. "Why don't you make it?" "No one buys it." Are there that few of the new generation of film users who shoot 120, that a consumer film coated, cut and rolled in that format wouldn't be sustainable? Is there market research that says they couldn't sell, for example, twice as much Gold 200 in 120 as they do Portra 160, if the price differential were the same as in 35mm?

Or maybe that is the case -- because if you don't have a local pro lab (or even if you do) it costs way too much to pay someone to process you color film for you, so the price of the roll isn't a big factor (since it costs the same to process Gold 200 as Portra 800).

koraks · Oct 5, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Are there that few of the new generation of film users who shoot 120, that a consumer film coated, cut and rolled in that format wouldn't be sustainable?

Yup, I'd say so. Most newcomers shot 35mm. 120 is a niche within a niche. And c41 is a fairly complex product with pretty steep entry barriers.

Are there really so few choices?

Donald Qualls

BradS

Alan9940

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AgX

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Auer

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Вormental_old

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Donald Qualls

PhotoJim

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