Are some films more prone to leave water-spots than others?

Hello,

today, I have processed a couple of rolls of slide film with good success (2x Ektachrome E100 @ 100 ASA, 1x Fujichrome Velvia 50 (exp. 2019) @ 40 ASA, 1x TURA Turachrome CR100 (exp. 2007) @ 80 ASA). While the density and the colors look normal on all films (one E100 seems to be a bit underexposed though), both E100s suffer from (imo, severe) water marks while Velvia 50 and CR100 have absolutely no water marks. Trust me, I looked at them in bright light in just about all angles I could think about.

The final rinse I used is the BelliniFoto E-6 stabilizer with 6 small drops of PhotoFlo 200 per film. I had the film soak in it for ca. 3 minutes. This procedure was all carried out the same for all films using distilled water.

I have absolutely no idea why only the E100s form water marks while V50 and CR100 are spotlessly clean. I want to empathize again that my process was consistent across all films; all I changed was I increased FD time by 0:30 for V50. However, I doubt that has anything to do with the marks.
It seems to me that some films are more prone to form water spots. I have made similar observations with color negatives (with ECN-2 films being much less prone to water spots) and BW as well.

Can anyone confirm this, and if yes, is there any way to get rid of the water-spots once the film is dry without getting the films ruined by scratches? I hate wiping my films with cloths (even using pecpads), I have always ruined them with scratches no matter how careful I was.

Thank you and have a good time!

I have found that spots came from local water or technique.

Sirius Glass said:

I have found that spots came from local water or technique.

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Well, yes, the water here is a bit hard and definitely forms spots. Therefore, I use distilled water to make-up all my chemicals (not just the stab/final rinse). I do wash my films with normal, warm tap water, though. It still does not explain why only some films get marks while others, being processed exactly the same, do not.
When I take my films out of the tank, I shake it vigorously to get rid of excess water and hang them to dry. No wiping or anything; I explained above why I don't even think of doing that anymore.
Also, what do you mean by technique? The way I dry them? What do you suggest?

@TophUwO Yes this is certainly possible for some films to have a propensity for spots. Emulsion is like a sponge, and some films can soak in more hard water than others, so they would require more time (or/and some gentle agitation) for the final rinse with distilled water.

Steven Lee said:

@TophUwO Yes this is certainly possible for some films to have a propensity for spots. Emulsion is like a sponge, and some films can soak in more hard water than others, so they would require more time (or/and some gentle agitation) for the final rinse with distilled water.

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Okay. Can I just re-rinse the film, this time longer? I rinsed them all for ca. 3 mins, with little agitation during the first 15-20 secs, and then just letting it sit for the remainder.
What would be a good starting point to increase time? Like 10 mins?

It’s been ages since I processed any E6 films, but why are you adding Photoflo to the stabilizer? Usually the stab has wetting agents incorporated, which could make your addition of Photoflo too much wetting agent leading to the water spots. I find with B&W films I have to be very careful with the amount of Photoflo I use, well below the suggested solution, or I get water spots. I also have to use distilled water for the final bath because I have hard water coming out of the tap.
If I were you I think I would spool your dry film back up and drop it the stab solution for a few minutes (no Photoflo) then dry- and see if works better. I’ve never had luck getting water spots out of the emulsion side without re-wetting the film.

btaylor said:

It’s been ages since I processed any E6 films, but why are you adding Photoflo to the stabilizer? Usually the stab has wetting agents incorporated, which could make your addition of Photoflo too much wetting agent leading to the water spots. I find with B&W films I have to be very careful with the amount of Photoflo I use, well below the suggested solution, or I get water spots. I also have to use distilled water for the final bath because I have hard water coming out of the tap.
If I were you I think I would spool your dry film back up and drop it the stab solution for a few minutes (no Photoflo) then dry- and see if works better. I’ve never had luck getting water spots out of the emulsion side without re-wetting the film.

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Hmm, I have read several complaints about sketchy kit stabilizers, so maybe I was not really trusting the stab the kit came with. I added photoflo to make up for the (worse?) stab surfactants.
I have to add that my spots are NOT on the emulsion side, they are always on the base.

If the spots are on the base side you may be able to clean them off with some film cleaner or damp cloth. Also, if you re-wet the film you should be able to wipe down the base side without damage if you’re careful.

TophUwO said:

... When I take my films out of the tank, I shake it vigorously to get rid of excess water and hang them to dry. No wiping or anything; I explained above why I don't even think of doing that anymore.
Also, what do you mean by technique? The way I dry them? What do you suggest?...

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I used to get water spots when I followed a technique similar to the OP.
Now I do the opposite. Never shake the film to get rid of excess water but rather hang the films as wet as possible.
Water spots happen because drops dry on the film before they have had time to flow all the way down the film and off the end. An extra step I do to calm my horror of water spots is to hang the film not vertically but edge on at 45 degrees for the first minute. Now the water and Photoflo suds only have to flow an inch or so to get across the film and off the picture area. If a water spot does form it's on the edge of the film and not on skies and faces like I used to get.

Steven Lee said:

@TophUwO Yes this is certainly possible for some films to have a propensity for spots. Emulsion is like a sponge, and some films can soak in more hard water than others, so they would require more time (or/and some gentle agitation) for the final rinse with distilled water.

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Yes it is possible but is there any evidence of this being the case? I can't recall this being said before on Photrio

pentaxuser

I usually whip the film strip to rid it of excess water too. That alone doesn't work though, the film has to also be hung in a steamed up bathroom w/ the door closed so it slowly dries. After about an hr I can crack the door open a little, and then it will be fully dry in a half hr. But just like everyone's water will be different, this will vary from person to person.

I had some trouble a while back w/ water spots, don't remember which film it was. The problem was fixed by soaking the negs in a casserole dish w/ distilled water and just a drop or two of Arista's version of photo flo.

A few minutes soaking did the job, and then they were hung to re-dry. It was a bit of a PITA because the film had been cut into strips, but it wasn't nearly as tedious as I had feared.

pentaxuser said:

Yes it is possible but is there any evidence of this being the case? I can't recall this being said before on Photrio

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I just said this. On Photrio. Here's your evidence.

TophUwO said:

It seems to me that some films are more prone to form water spots.

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This is certainly the case. Water spots mainly form on the non-image side of the film, and it so happens that different types (particularly, formats) of film have different treatments on the back. 35mm tends to have an untreated backside, which makes it prone to water spots. 120 and sheet film generally has gelatin anti-curl layers on the back, largely preventing the formation of water spots. As a consequence, I generally don't bother with distilled water or photoflo when processing 4x5's or 8x10's - they dry perfectly anyway, even with tap water. 35mm is a whole different ballgame.

Within the 35mm-realm I would not be surprised at all of large differences in propensity towards forming scale deposits, and the nature of those. To begin with, different base materials are used, and the material itself will probably be treated differently between manufacturers and sometimes even product lines.

Steven Lee said:

Emulsion is like a sponge

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Yes, but as @TophUwO pointed out what happens with the emulsion is mostly irrelevant to the typical drying mark problem, since it happens on the other side of the film. In film types that also have a gelatin emulsion on the backside (120, sheet film), drying marks are in my experience not an issue, or barely so.

Steven Lee said:

I just said this. On Photrio. Here's your evidence.

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So your evidence is simply your statement? If so where does this evidence come from, articles you have read, other statements from other users etc? I just was curious on what basis your statement was made

pentaxuser

TophUwO said:

I have to add that my spots are NOT on the emulsion side, they are always on the base.

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Spots on the base sounds like too much stabilizer/ wetting agent used in the final rinse.

It is entirely possible that the BelliniFoto E6 stabilizer includes surfactants that are either sufficient in themselves (leading to too much surfactant when Photoflo is added) or incompatible with the surfactant in Photoflo.
Even if that isn't the problem, 6 drops of Photoflo is a lot of Photoflo, unless you are making a large quantity of rinse.

MattKing said:

or incompatible with the surfactant in Photoflo.

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For what it's worth, another potential issue is that e.g. Adoflo (Adox' photoflo) doesn't play nice if you use it at color temperatures.

I have avoided spots and streaks by doing the following:

• Black & white taken off the reel and soaking in PhotoFlo mixed as directed for 30 seconds a minute
• Color taken off the reel and rinsed in the final solution for the directed time
• The film is then hung in the shower with a weighted clip at the end
• No fingers or squeegees
• I take a paper towel and draw off any excess fluid from the bottom corners as necessary, never touching the rest of the film after hanging
• I let the film hang for 24 hours to dry, even though it dries faster, I want the base and emulsion to properly dry out
• If the humidity is excessively low, before hanging the film, I will run the shower to steam up the bathroom

@everyone
Thanks for the suggestions. I was able to, sort of, fix the spots by rewashing the film in my standard solution (which is distilled water + 6 (tiny) drops of photo-flo (much smaller than those you get out of an eyedropper (I am using a syringe to measure photo-flo)) and a good bit of isopropyl alcohol) for 15 minutes (probably much longer than needed), then hanging them to dry as wet as possible (just like @Maris suggested). It's not entirely perfect, but it's a tremendous improvement -- some frames are completely clean while others have very minor marks. I will have to see how much they will be visible on the scans. Considering the results, @MattKing's claim of me using too much (i.e. stab + extra photo-flo) at first, thus forming deposits, may be correct.

After looking at the slides that were spotless even with my first washing procedure (Velvia 50 and CR100), I could see that these films have a rather matte base, especially the CR100, less so the V50. Comparing this to E100, which has a very glossy base, it may really be that they are different materials or at least differently finished. Another film that I used recently, an ADOX HR-50, also has a somewhat matte base and also shows absolutely no marks whatsoever.

Also, I did not really try the E-6 stabilizer without my, perhaps incorrect, addition of photo-flo. This is because I figured it's not really needed to use the stabilizer because the Bellini kit I used implements the actual E-6 process, including a pre-bleach step (called "conditioner" in their terms). As far as PE stated, processes with this step (which, as far as I understood, introduces Formaldehyde during the development) remove the need for an extra stabilizer containing the required Formaldehyde, therefore rendering a normal final rinse sufficient. Correct me if this is incorrect.

I thank you all for your efforts!

Sounds like you absorbed, digested and applied everything in a sensible manner, really. The only thing I'd add is that arriving at a spotless wash routine is a bit of a personal thing. For instance, if I do what Sirius suggests above (and I've done this many times with many variations), I will get spots on 35mm film. I need to take different measures to prevent this. So observe what happens, analyze, adjust and in doing so develop procedures that work for you, with your materials and within your abilities.

@koraks, thanks. I think you are definitely right with this. I have tried a lot of suggestions in this forum, I still don't have absolutely spotless results on all film stocks. I will have to experiment more. I am happy, though, that -- at least according to you -- these issues do not seem to be very prevalent on 120 or large format. I will get into that sometime in the future and having this issue diminished is good news considering I am yet to figure out things. Even if things do not work perfectly, any input is expressly wished. This sounds really strange to myself because I am usually after nothing less than perfect results, thus having these issues -- especially with film this expensive to shoot and develop -- is not exactly ideal, to put it lightly.

One question I have is:
How much will the remaining spots be visible in the scans? They are easily visible in reflected light but invisible to me when I look at them lying on a lightbox. I have read on this forum that spots are not an issue on scanned films. If this were true, this would be good, but still, spotless and in every other way really good results should be doable and not too much to ask for if you ask me.

It depends a bit on how they're scanned, but in my experience, what you described will show up on scans and prints one way or another.

Btw, have you tried gently wiping them off with a dry, lint-free cloth? Most drying marks come off that way, at least for me. Of course, it's better to prevent them altogether, but usually the issue can still be fixed.

@koraks, I have tried with a PecPad, but that didn't really work. I got rid of some bigger marks, but the really small ones were persistent. Anyway, they are minor, so maybe I can fix them in post. I simply don't want to ruin the film even more. I think it's better I let it be. I will still try to find ways to make the film spotless, because they are really annoying.
I gave it to my lab who also scans the films and see what they can do.
Considering I have given them film in much worse condition in the past and they came out well (that is, without visible spots and scratches on the scans), I am somewhat positive they won't mess it up. I just never really know whether the spots are simply not visible, or manually corrected by them. Might have to ask them. If they weren't visible, then I certainly would not panic as much as I do.

I wonder if it's possible to get rid of the spots by trying to manually wipe the film with these pecpads. They don't suck up the water well, but they are soft. I have read people talking about "photo-grade sponges" here. I do not really know what that actually is or if it makes sense in my case.
Also, I have yet to try a hair-dryer to see if that changes something.

I know this is what you don't want to hear and others will raise hell at my suggestion BUT would you try a squeegee?
I mean a proper squeegee, properly used.
I have used one professionally for 35 years and never damaged, gouged, or scratched a film. AND I never had drying marks.
Believe me, it can be done but it must be done properly.



Just sayin'

I have recently started to develop 35mm Ektachrome E100 with the Bellini E6 kit and am also experiencing water spots after using the stabilizer and drying. Has anyone else had similar issues and know how to fix it? I'm gonna try to add 5 mL of stabilizer to make 1 L instead of the suggested 10 mL and see if that makes a difference.