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Are Photo labs much worse today than they were before digital?

Bob Carnie

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You know when Kodak introduced Ectachrome just recently I kind of scratched my head on that one , as yes truly the very best E6 labs are gone, I can think of ICON in LA as
being one of the last great E6 labs.

I would have though Kodak would have reintroduced a digital silver paper, with a device to print it or more of the good old Black and White papers, at least there are thousands
here and abroad that still print black and white.

There is no E6 lab in Toronto with any quality that I am aware of, and basket runs don't cut it for me.
 

locutus

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My local lab in Helsinki does such a bad job i decided to move everything inhouse.
 

removed account4

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i have a local lab around the corner from me, she isn't bob carnie, but she is pretty dang good !

there is a knack to making great prints, some people it comes naturally, and others don't care, they just
want the print to be out the door.
its like anything really ...
 

Mr Bill

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Little information is available even from the web, about 'proper process calibration' that Kodak or Fuji might want labs to maintain for their processing equipment.

Hi, the closest thing to a bible is found in Kodak's Z manuals. These describe the main process parameters - time, temperature, replenishment rates, etc. Konica and Fuji also had similar manuals for their processes, but I don't recall ever seeing these online - in my experience you had to be a user of their materials to get the manuals. Anyway, look at the Z manuals, especially the section on "process control" to get the general gist of things. For those working in the industry, at least on a substantial scale, all sorts of manufacturer info and support was available. For example, Kodak used to put out a publication called TIPS, Technical Information for Processing Systems, that gave updated information on problems that various processors had run into, and occasionally revised corrections to certain control strip batches. But if you're outside the industry, you'd never know (or care) about these things.

If you worked with certain machinery - printers and processors - you would get a set of manuals with these, as well as (expensive) service contracts that would keep a stream of updated information coming to you.
 

Bob Carnie

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Fuji or Kodak would be in our Labs helping tighten specs and sorting out problems, I have great memories of all the great Kodak and Fuji reps who I still call friends today, it was a tight group
of individuals and everyone knew each other... Another fact not well known in Toronto was that all lab managers and owners talked to each other, shared information and warned each other
about bad clients. Kind of a Heidi Flume blacklist.
 

Luckless

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It is sounding like Kodak is putting its sights on centralized mail in service and bringing that back into play rather than the idea of just popping down to your corner store to get processing done. A lack of existing local labs is actually probably a good thing for them in some ways really, as it would reinforce people using the "Official Kodak Processing" services. Combine that with a strong online-shopping industry and customer base who are happy to wait a few days for stuff to zip across the country?

If they can hit critical mass on the processing, then they can rebuild exceedingly reliable and high quality processing centres that will be very tough for third party labs to ramp up and compete with again.
 

Pentode

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Here in NYC, there were still a host of excellent labs fifteen years ago. Ten years ago, the numbers were smaller, but you still had a choice of several labs doing high-quality work for the few remaining fashion pros that still used film.

As an amateur, living in a fashion hub was an embarrassment of riches; I could always find good professional labs charging reasonable prices.

Fast forward ten years - I took about seven years off from shooting and, when I got my cameras back out late last year, my favorite labs were gone.

Some asking around led me to a lab that's doing really nice C41 for me (LTI on 30th St), but they dropped E-6 about a year ago. They explained that they just didn't have enough volume to keep the processing consistent and they didn't feel they could charge for dodgy results.

For E-6, they sent me to Vista on 18th St and, so far, I've been happy with their work. I'm guessing they have enough volume because they're just about the only game in town.

Even in the heady days of many competing labs in NY, there were always some I felt were sub-par, but it's pretty sad that I'm down to two options in such a big city - and a big photography town as well. I'll admit there are still some others remaining that I haven't tried, but even if they're top-notch, it's still a pretty bleak scene compared to what it was.

I'm just glad to have the two that I have.
 

keenmaster486

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If they can hit critical mass on the processing, then they can rebuild exceedingly reliable and high quality processing centres that will be very tough for third party labs to ramp up and compete with again.
I will say this, that I really wish Kodak was still allowed to sell film with processing included - I would gladly pay for the convenience and the knowledge that Kodak will have as good quality as you'll find anywhere, probably better.

But I would cry foul if that was the only option they sold; I'd want to stock up on non-process-paid film as well.
 

Mr Bill

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I could probably sit down and write 50 or 100 pages on this (but I won't). People here don't know me, but way back when, I spent a number of years as the Quality Control manager in a large chain studio lab, printing vast quantities of paper every day, I would imagine dozens of times more than Bob. But completely different sorts of work; we were essentially a high volume picture factory, producing work to get within certain quality standards.

The sort of checks we'd do included processing machine checklists by the operator every shift, inluding visual checks, confirm that circulation and replenishment pumps are working, wash water flow rates are correct, chemical temperature readings and dryer temperatures are ok, squeegees are all ok, and that sort of thing. We typically ran about 3 control strips per shift on paper processors, relying on the operator to notice if something drastic happened in between. For film we were more finicky - our cine machines wouldn't start production in the morning until my department approved a control strip and a "scratch test," roughly 20 feet of film, half fully exposed and half clear, and given a 5 or 10 minute examination for any traces of scratches. After startup, another control strip every couple hours - even with hundreds of gallons of developer in the machine, a developer replenisher problem could run it out of process spec in that time. All told, we ran about 50 control strips per day on a one-shift operation. If anything unusual happened on an individual control plot, someone from my department would check out the machines - compare temperature readout vs a reference thermometer, measure the machine speed, perhaps recalibrate the replenishment pumps or even pull chemical samples for our chem lab. If all the processors showed the same sort of control plot shift, we'd have our chem mix operator switch to a different replenisher tank and isolate the questionable tank until our chem lab found what went wrong.

You may think it's a little nutty to go to these extremes, but the sort of work we did demanded it. Film was "analyzed" on Kodak PVACs then printed on long roll (~575 ft) printers - any shift along the way meant that a lot of paper was going in the trash.

We even did semi-random screening of image stability a couple times a year. The point of this was in case we ran into some undetected chemical or water problem that affected image stability - we would hope to learn about it within several months, as opposed to years later when customers might begin returning defective prints.

In later years, when optical printing went out of favor, machines such as the Noritsu "print to process" machines were not so sensitive to chemical process variations. They had built-in calibration routines where the the machine could "read" its own step wedge results and make corrections to the printing exposure. So instead of correcting a chemical problem right away, one could just run a machine recalibration and the printed work would come right back to aim. For details on how this works, each machine came with about an 8 inch tall stack of printed manuals.

I fear I went beyond the layman's level, but the gist is that your "calibrations," or whatever you want to call them, are sort of a tradeoff between your desired level of control vs what it is reasonable to pay for. Since photofinishing is not usually a life and death situation, the economics of your business usually decide.

Hope I didn't bore everyone too much.
 

Bob Carnie

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I think you have hit the nail on the head... Send the box in and you will get film and prints back going way way back.
 

MattKing

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The lab I worked in was a fairly low volume colour print lab - we printed proofs, machine enlargements and high quality custom enlargements for a moderate number of professional/commercial photographers. We also printed our own work.
I did most of the machine printing. Rob did all of the custom enlargements - and Rob was a very, very fine printer.
If I recall correctly, our paper processor was a Kreonite processor that could handle up to 30" roll paper (although it might have been 24" paper). We ran all Kodak materials (purchased from Treck Photographic). Rob would run at least two control strips each working day, and often more, and insisted on very narrow tolerances.
 

Theo Sulphate

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...
Hope I didn't bore everyone too much.

Not at all. My gratitude to you, Bob, and others contributing to this thread.
 

Mr Bill

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Theo and John, you're quite welcome, but be careful not to encourage me too much - it can be hard to get me to stop talking.

As a note, I didn't really indicate what kind of volume we did that makes the QC worthwhile. For those with a sense of what a Kodak master roll of paper is, we could put out that much printed work (color balanced, inspected, dust spotted, packaged, and shipped) in easily less than an hour. So if things got out of kilter, a lot of money could get thrown away in a hurry. It's hard to be sure, but I doubt there were more than a couple of labs in the US that may have PRINTED more than we did (FILM processing is a different story, though; probably lots of wholesale labs did.)
 

foc

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I own a retail minilab/photo shop since 1985. Before that I worked in photo retail and wholesale photofinishing. I have also been a professional photographer for the last 32 years. And all of this in a small town, in a small country, on the periphery of Europe.

In my opinion I think the quality achieved by (and I am speaking about minilabs) modern equipment like Fuji Frontier and Noritsu's, is vastly superior to what was acceptable back in the 1990's. There is a wealth of knowledge required to operate any processing equipment. Minilab equipment makes it easier to press the button and go. They will rep according to preset instructions, they will alarm if level of chemicals run low or tank levels drop ( I don't understand where people get the stale chemical idea from). In all the machine will do as it was programmed.

The important point is who monitors the program and the programmer. And it all starts with simple good housekeeping or that should be labkeeping.

First thing in the morning is to check all temps (machines are on timers). Then check racks, cross overs etc. Then run a leadercard throughput test (minilab C41) and then run neg control strip. Once a week check rep pump output. Once a month washout , washtanks, check circulation, change filters, check pipes and tubing. I could go on and bore you , but you get the idea.

With neg scanners, we use a Pakon now, used to use Frointier, we do our morning set up, clean film feed, and run a test neg and view and print.

So now I know my processing is within the manufacturer's guidelines and with digital printing onto silver halide prints (RA4) the software will give colour prints again within the manufacturer's guidelines. Is this the correct colour? Well in my experience yes and no.

Correct colour can be very subjective and in the eye of the beholder. I have printed all my own professional work (since 1985) and still got the odd client say it was the wrong colour. The best was one client said it was too dark and to make the blacks , blacker.

As has been explained excellently on posts above, the market for cheap processing basically ruined the quality.( Michelin star meal for take away price ???) Minilabs were sold as profit centres to non photographic minded operations. It could only go down hill.

But not all should be tarred with the same brush. Some of us try our best to maintain high standards. But no lab will be all things to all people. I reckon at this stage any lab still running is doing so because they have good business sense and good quality and most importantly, giving the customer what they want.
 

wiltw

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Hi, the closest thing to a bible is found in Kodak's Z manuals. ... look at the Z manuals, especially the section on "process control" to get the general gist of things.



Thanks to all regarding their responses. From my own past (indirect) involvement with labs who catered to professionals, I was aware of calibration strips that could be used as process checks, but was unaware of frequency of use of such strips. I even worked for a medical imaging equipment company that a processor of its own! The point of my inquiry was only partly to become better informed. Most of the interest was in making the APUG readers more aware of how intricate maintaining machines was and how often it was checked, and also about the expertise required of the guys running the control strips in correcting/tweaking the machines to stay within spec. Hopefully educate all of us about what happens when film and print volume drops signficantly...Does it get easier or more difficult to maintain calibration in view of low volumes, does it not matter? That way we all get a better insight into the quality trending as processing volumes continue to decline...set expectations!
 
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John Wiegerink

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Does anyone have first hand experience with AgX Imaging in Sault Saint Marie, Michigan?
I have heard good things about the lab. The one thing was the owner/manager, I think his name is Mike, or whatever takes his work very serious and that's what makes a good lab. That and knowing what you're doing! He's just up the road from me and I might drop some 4X5 off to him the next time I'm up there. Just a little 286mi. drive, but I'll certainly wait for warmer weather before I go 'cause I've been up there in the winter time before.
 

MattKing

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Does it get easier or more difficult to maintain calibration in view of low volumes, does it not matter? That way we all get a better insight into the quality trending as processing volumes continue to decline...set expectations!
It probably is more difficult.
But possibly more importantly, it also becomes more expensive, because calibration uses up "stuff", and eats up time, and both the stuff and the time cost money.
 

Tim Stapp

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I'm only an hour south of you, so let me know when you're going. I'm not sure my wife would let me go without her though . The Soo is one of our favorite places. Sadly, I'm just getting into film at the young age of 60. But the good thing is, I've been able to piece meal my darkroom for a song.
 

Pentode

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I reckon at this stage any lab still running is doing so because they have good business sense and good quality and most importantly, giving the customer what they want.
I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. Anyone choosing to make a living processing film is doing it because they care about it. The people at the two labs I'm using are earnest and genuine. They very clearly want to do good work.
 

Andrew K

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I think Bob has hit the nail on the head - it's the staff that make a lab good or bad.

I've been involved on and off working in amateur and pro labs (as a printer on both printers and enlargers, and also owned a custom B&W lab for a few years) for over 30 years - and found that some were good, some were great, some were so - so.

It all depended on the attitudes of the owners and staff

One black and white lab today does as good or better printing than any lab I've come across (Blanco Negro in Sydney) - this comes down to Chris Reid who is the owner/chief bottle washer and printer - he is exceptional and prints exhibitions for many well respected photographers.

Color printing today is similar - I would agree with Bob that inkjet prints are now at least as good, if not better than silver halide prints. And because lab staff can see the results on the screen the color is usually much better than we used to get when we "read" negatives printing them optically.

The other point I'd bring up is the hang up people have that "real chemical" prints are the only "honest" way to print films. It's amazing how many people I've spoken to tell me they shoot film because they take their film to a lab who has a "chemical" machine and makes "real" prints.

However for at least the last 10 years I don't know of any lab in Australia that prints optically - they all use machines like Fuji Frontier's or Noritsu's which scan the negatives and then print them with LED's or lasers...

So if a film is not printed optically is the print (chemical or otherwise) a real interpretation of the negative?

One for another day and another beer.....
 

John Wiegerink

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Tim,
I have spent a lot of my younger time in the U.P., but mostly hunting and fishing, not doing photography. I still love it up there and would be living somewhere in the sticks there if it weren't for my wife. She's a Southern Flat-lander and can't be away from the kids and grand kids. I keep telling her that they all know how to drive, but it doesn't do any good. I'm at my winter home down south in Sparta. No, not Mississippi, but Sparta, MI. My summer place is on Perch Lake in Lake Station. That's almost as good as the U.P. Or at least closer to it anyway. I just put together a 4X5 field camera outfit so I'm planning on trying AgX Imaging Labs out. I too, have a very nice darkroom at a fraction of the cost of 30 years ago. I call it my "Man Cave" and spend hours in there. I hate digital post processing, but love wet work. I do use digi, but don't like the rest of it. Of course it would be pretty hard to post pictures here without it.
 

Andrew K

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It probably is more difficult.
But possibly more importantly, it also becomes more expensive, because calibration uses up "stuff", and eats up time, and both the stuff and the time cost money.

Honestly it's not much different to the old days. I work part time in a camera store doing their second hand gear, and we got a new film processor a couple of years ago. Why?

Two reasons. The old one was worn out. And the new one is designed with smaller tanks so it uses less chemistry.

Both machines use the same C41 chemistry, and both use the same process control strips. The new one is a little easier to keep in process control because it requires less film run through it
 

MattKing

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Smaller and newer is definitely better if volumes are lower!