Are modern film emulsions vegetarian?

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2014

Then, if we take Denise's example as B&W, color would have about 3x that amount. Modern films though, have a lot less due to the fineness of the manufacturing process. They would run about 30% lower or more in gelatin. Hand made materials have about 2x the gelatin than commercial processes. Commercial emulsions are concentrated during manufacture so that water can be adjusted to adjust viscosity.

So, no easy answer because it also varies from product to product. But figure about 2g / square meter as an average and you can figure the rest.

And BTW, there is a "second" volume to that book. IIRC, it is called "From Ektachrome to Instant" by H. Roberts. It is a very rare book. In the book "From Dry Plates...." it is amusing to see some of the errors. One figure is an amalgam of 2 other figures which makes it outright wrong. Mees never caught these in editing. I guess none of us do.

PE

Allen Friday · Nov 18, 2014

brianentz said:
Well, bummer. I am a vegan and had no problem giving up meat, but don't think I'm going to give up film. I also occasionally buy leather when there's no good alternative. What can I say... Life is complicated. [emoji37]

You could shoot wet plates and make platinum prints.

removed account4 · Nov 18, 2014

Allen Friday said:
You could shoot wet plates and make platinum prints.

most excellent idea !

RattyMouse · Nov 18, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Then, if we take Denise's example as B&W, color would have about 3x that amount. Modern films though, have a lot less due to the fineness of the manufacturing process. They would run about 30% lower or more in gelatin. Hand made materials have about 2x the gelatin than commercial processes. Commercial emulsions are concentrated during manufacture so that water can be adjusted to adjust viscosity.

So, no easy answer because it also varies from product to product. But figure about 2g / square meter as an average and you can figure the rest.

And BTW, there is a "second" volume to that book. IIRC, it is called "From Ektachrome to Instant" by H. Roberts. It is a very rare book. In the book "From Dry Plates...." it is amusing to see some of the errors. One figure is an amalgam of 2 other figures which makes it outright wrong. Mees never caught these in editing. I guess none of us do.

PE

Interesting PE. I would have thought the amount to be much lower. 7.5 grams of added material to the acetate seems very high. And that counts only the gelatin. Seems an impossibly large mass for such a thin coating.

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2014

Well, as I say, the amount has decreased since I coated film. And the figure you quote is per square meter of support.

Remember too that Xray is coated on both sides in some varieties. That is a lot of silver and gelatin.

PE

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2014

People think that they are vegetarians or vegans are really neither because they take protein supplements to get missing proteins. These supplements are from animals. Therefore vegetarians and vegans are really carnivores!

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2014

Ratty, you know, I don't have these figures OTOMH. I am going back to recalculate some of them and make sure of what I have posted. Give me some time and I'll try to get you a better answer, but I remind you that it will be years out of date because I have not coated product since the '80s and have not kept up with the details.

PE

Athiril · Nov 19, 2014

jnanian said:
there are a lot of materials used in the cooking industry ( agar ? )
that are gelifying agents. I am always mystified when i watch modern chefs put 1/8tsp of
a white powder into a slurry /broth and it turns it into a gelatin mold ...
if they don't breed bacteria might they be substituted for the bone-gelatin ? i
how about somethinglike polyvinyl acetate ( PVA ) glue like elmers or mucilage
(the stuff made from plants, not flicker ... refined SAP ) or something like dried fireproof collodion or albumen..

The problem with Agar-Agar is that it can be continually 're-set' iirc, it can dissolve again once heated up I think, or even in just room temperature water (cant remember off the to of my head), though that's without any attempt at a hardening process.

Michael W · Nov 19, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
People think that they are vegetarians or vegans are really neither because they take protein supplements to get missing proteins. These supplements are from animals. Therefore vegetarians and vegans are really carnivores!

What a load of misinformed nonsense. I'm a vegetarian with an excellent, well balanced diet & don't take any vitamin or protein supplements. However I am aware that there are vegan vitamins for those who want them. So basically, nothing of what you wrote is close to correct.

Athiril · Nov 19, 2014

I saw a thing going around recently, people sharing stuff on facebook stating you can get all the protein you need from broccoli, showing a similar amount of protein for total calories vs meat etc. Of course it was a total lie, as you'd need to eat about 3.5kg of broccoli to get that amount of protein.

analoguey · Nov 19, 2014

Following this thread.
As a vegetarian, I would prefer to shoot an analog or film process which doesn't involve gelatin. I really liked some of the results from carbon transfer until I found that it has to be hand-coated w gelatin. Hand-coating w gelatin would kill(!) my appetite for weeks!
Good to know that a roll of film would have only about ~2g of gelatin!

Biding my time to figure out if I can try the collodion process. are there other processes too?

Aside-
it's interesting to note the misinformation abounding about a vegetarian diet (almost like for film usage on some other forums) - most recent gold/silver winners at wrestling and boxing were vegetarians! (CG games/ World championships)
Most people would need less protein/calories than wrestlers and boxers!

pdeeh · Nov 19, 2014

Plenty of alt-processes have no absolute requirement for animal-derived substances, although gelatin is often used as a size for paper in processes like cyanotype or salted paper etc., it's not essential to the chemistry of them in the way that it is in silver gelatin film or paper.

Have a look at alternativephotography.com, analoguey

analoguey · Nov 19, 2014

Thanks, pdeeh! I shall do that.

Rick A · Nov 19, 2014

If you don't want to size with gelatin, there's always albumen.

pdeeh · Nov 19, 2014

Rick A said:
If you don't want to size with gelatin, there's always albumen.

Or arrowroot. As albumen comes from chooks

MartinCrabtree · Nov 19, 2014

Being a true purist is difficult regardless of venue. Make the choices you can live with.

Sirius Glass · Nov 19, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
People think that they are vegetarians or vegans are really neither because they take protein supplements to get missing proteins. These supplements are from animals. Therefore vegetarians and vegans are really carnivores!

Michael W said:

What a load of misinformed nonsense. I'm a vegetarian with an excellent, well balanced diet & don't take any vitamin or protein supplements. However I am aware that there are vegan vitamins for those who want them. So basically, nothing of what you wrote is close to correct.

Click to expand...

The manager at the local GNC tells me that he gets vegetarians and vegans who regularly ask him for food supplements made of animal products. Some of the essential amino acids [Dead Link Removed occur in trace amounts. The manager told me these are the supplements that vegetarians and vegans request and they buy those made from animals. QED

ME Super · Nov 19, 2014

Athiril said:
The problem with Agar-Agar is that it can be continually 're-set' iirc, it can dissolve again once heated up I think, or even in just room temperature water (cant remember off the to of my head), though that's without any attempt at a hardening process.

IDK about dissolving agar-agar in water once it's set, however, it does exhibit some hysteresis when gelling and melting. The melting point is 85oC (185oF), but it solidifies at 32-40oC (90-104oF). Is it the hysteresis that makes it unsuitable for making film, or is it some other property? IDK. I'd think that the hysteresis would be a beneficial thing from a processing standpoint, as you know it wouldn't melt at normal processing temperatures. Maybe it contains too much sulfur or something. I don't know, I'm just speculating at stuff beyond the melting and freezing temperature of the stuff.

RattyMouse · Nov 19, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
People think that they are vegetarians or vegans are really neither because they take protein supplements to get missing proteins. These supplements are from animals. Therefore vegetarians and vegans are really carnivores!

Let me be the second person to say that the above is totally and factually incorrect.

It strains credulity to the utmost to think that one can actually believe that that *EVERY* vegetarian on the planet is on some kind of supplementation. I cannot for the life of me figure out how someone could arrive at such a bizarre and unsubstantiated conclusion. It is inexplicable.

Further, a 100% vegetarian diet as well as a 100% vegan diet provides a FULL complement of essential amino acids. There is no science whatsoever to suggest that consuming animals is required to get all essential amino acids. None. On the contrary, the link provided in this thread proves the OPPOSITE. Let me quote, "Certain native combinations of foods, such as corn and beans, soybeans and rice, or red beans and rice, contain the essential amino acids necessary for humans in adequate amounts.".

While I was raised a carnivore, for the past 15 years I have led a vegetarian life, without the supplementation of ANY kind. None.

RattyMouse · Nov 19, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Ratty, you know, I don't have these figures OTOMH. I am going back to recalculate some of them and make sure of what I have posted. Give me some time and I'll try to get you a better answer, but I remind you that it will be years out of date because I have not coated product since the '80s and have not kept up with the details.

PE

Ok PE, no rush!

Thanks!

Gerald C Koch · Nov 20, 2014

I don't wish to stir up any emotional input but if people did not eat chickens, cattle, pigs, etc these species would become extinct. No is going to keep them for any other reason than as food. I respect the idea that people do not wish to eat animals. I personally do not eat any form of pork because pigs are more intelligent than dogs. I certainly would not eat dogs. As far as vegan thought goes, bees make more honey than they can use, cows give milk whether we drink it or not and chickens lay eggs whether someone eats them or not. So much for exploiting these and other creatures.

BTW, why are there no vegan vampires? Because you can't get blood from a turnip! I once told that to a hematologist. He was not amused.

L Gebhardt · Nov 20, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
I don't wish to stir up any emotional input but if people did not eat chickens, cattle, pigs, etc these species would become extinct. No is going to keep them for any other reason than as food. I respect the idea that people do not wish to eat animals. I personally do not eat any form of pork because pigs are more intelligent than dogs. I certainly would not eat dogs. As far as vegan thought goes, bees make more honey than they can use, cows give milk whether we drink it or not and chickens lay eggs whether someone eats them or not. So much for exploiting these and other creatures.

BTW, why are there no vegan vampires? Because you can't get blood from a turnip! I once told that to a hematologist. He was not amused.

Well I'm sure some people would keep a few of most species as pets or as a hobby. Just look at all the strange hobbies people participate in, such as analog photography.

As far as exploiting animals, we have 3 chickens left (out of 9 6 have died of old age). They haven't laid an egg in 6 months. We still feed them because they are pets to my daughter. I'm kind of fond of them too. Still, I think they may be exploiting me, given the cost of feed and the labor. Still I'd think about getting more of them even if they didn't lay eggs since they keep the ticks in the yard down. They are also a good source of fertilizer for the vegetables.

lxdude · Nov 20, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
BTW, why are there no vegan vampires? Because you can't get blood from a turnip! I once told that to a hematologist. He was not amused.

Made me laugh!

jspillane · Nov 20, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
As far as vegan thought goes, bees make more honey than they can use, cows give milk whether we drink it or not and chickens lay eggs whether someone eats them or not. So much for exploiting these and other creatures.

While the above view is fair enough in reference to a limited number of ethically run small farms around the world, it is quite a strain in relationship to the horrific actions of the meat and diary industry.

I am a vegetarian (who does not eat diary or eggs but is not vegan- I do eat honey). I do not take supplements, but it is quite easy to find (actual) vegan dietary aids with even a small amount of research. It is true that many vegetarians (very few vegans that I know, though) inadvertently eat animal products hidden in a wide variety of products. I used to for many years, in ignorance. As I've learned more about different products and manners of production, I've changed my habits.

I accept that film has animal by-products in it; it is what it is. Morally, it troubles me less than the appalling labors conditions that go into making most products (such as the computer I am typing this on, the phone in my pocket, and the sweater on my back...). I buy used clothing, I try to eat food that is to the best of my knowledge produced and distributed in at least semi-ethical manner, I recycle, I take photographs and I attempted to stay sane.

Photo Engineer · Nov 20, 2014

I think it is time for a moderator to close this thread. This same "skew" happened last time!

PE

Are modern film emulsions vegetarian?

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