Are modern film emulsions vegetarian?

brianentz · Nov 18, 2014

Or are they all made with gelatin made from animal bone?

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2014

Some years ago there was an attempt to use only synthetic polymers to replace the gelatin. While it was possible to replace some of it and get a useable emulsion it was not possible to replace all of it. The choice of gelatin to make emulsions was a particularly fortuitous one. There are compounds and structures in the gelatin that are essential for its working. Ss sorry no vegan films or papers.

LikeAPolaroid · Nov 18, 2014

No animals are killed for this anyway.

RattyMouse · Nov 18, 2014

There are no vegetarian friendly films. Zero.

Cybertrash · Nov 18, 2014

Well, as long as you don't eat them they should be vegetarian, but they're not vegan.

lxdude · Nov 18, 2014

I'm not vegetarian, but the animals I eat are. That's gotta count for something.

AgX · Nov 18, 2014

And not even Tasma films were halal.

removed account4 · Nov 18, 2014

there are a lot of materials used in the cooking industry ( agar ? )
that are gelifying agents. I am always mystified when i watch modern chefs put 1/8tsp of
a white powder into a slurry /broth and it turns it into a gelatin mold ...
if they don't breed bacteria might they be substituted for the bone-gelatin ? i
how about somethinglike polyvinyl acetate ( PVA ) glue like elmers or mucilage
(the stuff made from plants, not flicker ... refined SAP ) or something like dried fireproof collodion or albumen..

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2014

Agar is obtained from Irish moss which is a variety of kelp. Gelatin is more than a dispersal medium for silver halide. Various sulfur compounds in the gelatin have an effect on the emulsion speed. This is why only certain types of bone gelatin are used. At one time Kodak manufactured their own gelatin. There was a problem that if the animals had eaten wild onions that there were too many sulfur compounds in the gelatin and the emulsion would severely fog. PE can certainly expand on this topic.

AgX · Nov 18, 2014

Those Sulfur components are a thing of the past.
Nevertheless gelatin has as well chemical as physical properties that are superior in coating and employing halide systems to synthetical layer-forming substances

NickLimegrove · Nov 18, 2014

related: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

ME Super · Nov 18, 2014

All gelatins are animal in origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

"Gelatins" like Agar-agar are not in fact gelatins at all. Agar-agar is in fact a polysaccharide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar

IDK of any films that are coated with agar (or agar-agar) instead of gelatin. Perhaps PE could weigh in on this.

removed account4 · Nov 18, 2014

ME Super said:
IDK of any films that are coated with agar (or agar-agar) instead of gelatin.

i don't think they are, but they should and if you are hungry you can have a healthy silver nitrate snack...
you know. like having a kelp cone ( soft serve ) ... kelp would be a wonderful emulsion suspension delivery system
although they say these days people are eating too much algae+seaweed .. so it might be problematic

Xmas · Nov 18, 2014

Mooooooo

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2014

Photo grade gelatin contains no sulfur containing amino acids. The sulfur is added in a controlled fashion later in the manufacturing process of the emulsion. The sulfur came from eating wild mustard plants.

PE

DREW WILEY · Nov 18, 2014

See how the film tastes with salad dressing on it.

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2014

So film is something that I can sink my teeth into.

brianentz · Nov 18, 2014

Well, bummer. I am a vegan and had no problem giving up meat, but don't think I'm going to give up film. I also occasionally buy leather when there's no good alternative. What can I say... Life is complicated. [emoji37]

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 18, 2014

Unless the film itself is eating plants, I don't think it can be vegan or vegetarian. Made in an ethical/cruelty-free fashion? different question.

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2014

Photograde gelatin is made from cattle bones or pig skins. Other gelatins are also used as needed. However, these products are not the result of direct sacrifice of an animal but rather a byproduct of other commercial operations such as the meat industry. There is an extensive thread here from about 2 years ago about this same topic. It may be of some use to look it up.

PE

RattyMouse · Nov 18, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Photograde gelatin is made from cattle bones or pig skins. Other gelatins are also used as needed. However, these products are not the result of direct sacrifice of an animal but rather a byproduct of other commercial operations such as the meat industry. There is an extensive thread here from about 2 years ago about this same topic. It may be of some use to look it up.

PE

PE, how much gelatin would be contained in a single roll of 120 film? Just a guess figure. Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2014

Color or B&W?

vdonovan · Nov 18, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Photo grade gelatin contains no sulfur containing amino acids. The sulfur is added in a controlled fashion later in the manufacturing process of the emulsion. The sulfur came from eating wild mustard plants.

PE

In Mees's "From Dry Plates to Ektachrome Film" he says "If cows didn't like mustard, we wouldn't have movies." He's referring to the discovery that some gelatins made for more sensitive emulsions than others, which was eventually traced by S.E. Sheppard to the amount of mustard oil in the gelatin.

dwross · Nov 18, 2014

Commercial or handmade?

There are ~2.5 g of gelatin in a full roll of handmade 120 film.

I'm re-reading "From Dry Plates..." right now. Great book. I think everyone interested in film would enjoy it.

RattyMouse · Nov 18, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Color or B&W?

Both!
:confused:

Are modern film emulsions vegetarian?

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