Are Mamiya 645 fit for a beginner in medium format photography?

Hi,

I rekindled my interest in analog photography with the aim to go up to medium format. I am currently shooting a 35mm reflex and I am accustomed with current DSLRs. I've never tried a medium format camera in my life.

I have found the following offers:

1) 645E with 3 lenses (45, 80 and 135 + 2x multiplier) for 450 euros
2) M645 with 80mm lens for 230 euros
3) 645 super with 80mm lens for 280 euros (with waistlevel viewfinder)

As far as I can tell, the first one doesn't have interchangeable back and one of the 2) or 3) has a tilting feature.

Do you think that one of these cameras can be a good fit for a complete beginner in medium format? Or will they be limiting? I would like to get to 6x7 sooner or later, should I directly take one or would the curve be too steep? (I haven't found good offers for 6x7 cameras. But then, I am not in a rush).
Do you think that the prices are reasonable for what I think are cameras in good conditions ?

Thanks for your advices/suggestions.

Francesco

Those cameras are all good. The problem with 645 cameras is that turning from landscape to portrait can be difficult for some cameras.

Important is what do you want - what is your shooting style. Even Holga is good entry in meduim format - if you are after that look.

darkosaric said:

Those cameras are all good. The problem with 645 cameras is that turning from landscape to portrait can be difficult for some cameras.

Important is what do you want - what is your shooting style. Even Holga is good entry in meduim format - if you are after that look.

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I agree, it would be good to know more about your expectations. MF format offers a wide range of camera options, starting with Holgas and classic viewfinder cameras (folders), over more modern rangefinder type cameras (Mamiya 6/7, Bronica RF) and TLRs like the classic Rolleiflex etc. to SLR type cameras (Mamiya 645, Hassi, Pentax 645/67, Bronicas) and view camera/field camera type gear like the Horseman VH/VHR and others. Most of these cameras are affordable nowadays and it really depends on what you want to do with the camera (handheld casual shooting, portrait, landscape, architecture ...) or what you expect from medium format (higher resolution/sharpness, smoother tones/colors/less grain, a certain image format etc.)

mnemosyne said:

I agree, it would be good to know more about your expectations. MF format offers a wide range of camera options, starting with Holgas and classic viewfinder cameras (folders), over more modern rangefinder type cameras (Mamiya 6/7, Bronica RF) and TLRs like the classic Rolleiflex etc. to SLR type cameras (Mamiya 645, Hassi, Pentax 645/67, Bronicas) and view camera/field camera type gear like the Horseman VH/VHR and others. Most of these cameras are affordable nowadays and it really depends on what you want to do with the camera (handheld casual shooting, portrait, landscape, architecture ...) or what you expect from medium format (higher resolution/sharpness, smoother tones/colors/less grain, a certain image format etc.)

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Hi mnemosyne(and darkosaric).

My initial mail was non clear enough, you're right. I was worried about "being even able to operate" a camera possibly different from what I am accustomed to (I wonder: is this even true? Is such a medium format camera "different" from a 35mm reflex ?) but you rightly point out the need to think about what I like or would like to photograph. Since I live in Rome, I have the opportunity to shoot some wonderful palaces or views and I would like to be able to capture them. But I would also like to be able to shoot handheld pictures, think of street photography or portraits.

So, thanks for giving me the opportunity to discuss a bit.

First of all: are these cameras suitable for handheld shooting or are they realistically workable only on tripod?

Second: is the missing interchangeable back a serious problem? After reading about it, I think that since you don't have many exposures on a roll, it could be not so bad.

Third: I always read about processing a "single exposure". Leaving aside that I have not even able processed a 35mm roll by myself (!) and so I am really going out of my skills, will I always be tied to processing a roll at a time (is the one-plate-at-a-time only a feature for large format cameras, which are really beyond my imagination at the moment?)

Thanks for taking the time to read all this!

Francesco

I am going to jump backwards in my post and ask if you have a light meter, know how to shoot manually. Do you carry multiple lenses with you with your 35m stuff?

Of the cameras you are looking at I have only used the M645 and due to its age, I would make sure it has been serviced before bothering with it. There is no better way to turn a person off the medium that messed up gear and the price, even at 230 for that kit is too high. The 645E is newer, has fixed viewfinder and back, so it is much more like a standard SLR with built in metering. I know little about the super only that the 645 Pro is newer and suffers from less mechanical issues.

If you have $450 to start with in medium format (nice for you), I would recommend a good working TLR (twin lens reflex) like a rolleicord, rolleiflex or Yashicamat 124G (or without the G) and a trip to the camera shop for a CLA (clean lube adjust). The reason being, they are square format, have great lenses and you can buy the camera, alight meter, pay for the service and some film for $450

If you buy the 645e, wich seems like a decent deal with three lenses, just take one lens the first few outings, there is no reason to start with so much equipment.

But just to get started, I fell for Medium format by random chance with an Agfa Isollette 1 (a lower end folding camera) that I found for $10. I blew up a shot on my first roll to 20"x20" and it looks great! So dont think you have to spend $200 to $500 to start.

First of all: are these cameras suitable for handheld shooting or are they realistically workable only on tripod?

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I hand hold my m645 frequently, rarely do I use a tripod. Setting exposure is slow compared to what you are used to. There are two buttons for firing shutter on that model.
What prism does the M645 come with? The light meters are built into the prisms, so it may not have one. You will need a hand held meter or your DSLR to set exposure (this can be your brain as some will say, but I prefer a device)

Second: is the missing interchangeable back a serious problem? After reading about it, I think that since you don't have many exposures on a roll, it could be not so bad.

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No, forget about this, Its a nice feature, but unless you came to this knowing you needed it its not important. It just adds to the crap in your bag and you'll waste time fiddling with that instead of taking photos. With our without the interchangeable backs, all these camera use the same film inserts that you can preload and carry with you but again, that is more info than you need right now.

Third: I always read about processing a "single exposure". Leaving aside that I have not even able processed a 35mm roll by myself (!) and so I am really going out of my skills, will I always be tied to processing a roll at a time (is the one-plate-at-a-time only a feature for large format cameras, which are really beyond my imagination at the moment?)

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These are roll film cameras, not plate cameras, so just think 120 film and worry about "plate" cameras later. (They are mostly large format, but you can make a plate camera any size you want)

Sure you can handheld them, Rome is a sunny city, so iso 100 or iso 400 - no problem, just be sure that shutter speed is more than 1/125s and not too much coffee (steady hands ). As already said - for portraits it could be problematic because natural position of those 645 cameras are landscape. Street photography: those cameras are loud, but on tourist city of Rome I never had problems with shooting, everybody has a camera and shoot all the time, nobody cares. Interchangeable back - this is personal, I thing 12 shots is not much, so for me it is not a problem, but for others it could be. Tripod - I seldom use it - but if you are after maximum of what lens can give you - then use tripod.

A nice Bronica SQ-B or SQ-A set (6x6 format) is very nice to handle and has some great glass. Works perfectly handheld and these sets can be found cheap.
There is also the Etrs set from Bronica for 6x4.5 format.

Go to a photo convention or a nice 2nd hand store and just hold different types of cameras to see what you think is nice to handle, then look at suitable systems.

Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

trythis said:

But just to get started, I fell for Medium format by random chance with an Agfa Isollette 1 (a lower end folding camera) that I found for $10. I blew up a shot on my first roll to 20"x20" and it looks great! So dont think you have to spend $200 to $500 to start

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+1

Agfa isolette and other cheap folders are awesome if lens is in good condition.
Agfa isolette I and Tmax 400:

Dead Link Removed

I owned a 645e for about a decade. It's a great camera. The meter is great to have, and performs admirably. Because of the vertical film orientation, the camera is in landscape orientation, which I liked. True, it has a fixed back, but this never really bothered me. The 80mm lens is very good, and I also had a 45mm that was nice, but a bit soft and it liked to flare. Overall, I really liked it. Ultimately, I sold it off to pay for a 4x5 combo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ptjuderi1/9400862669. Here is a link to a sample on flickr.

You sound like someone, who needs to discover the basics of photography. You need to slow down, learn how to expose film, how to develop and(possibly) scan. The slower and less automated it will be, the better.
I would suggest, you make a small initial investment on a camera, then figure out about all the above, and then if you are still intending to persevere, go up on the format scale.
The best entry is a TLR - you can try a Yashika Mat 124, or any other decent model with WLF. Start with the most fool proof things: landscapes or portraits from a tripod, Tri X or HP5+ Hc 110 dil H, Flatbed scanner ( as good as you can afford). If you want to wet print, set up your darkroom. Compose and expose carefully, don't change film type or developer type or camera for at least a year. Come back at the end of 2015 and let us know what you would like to do next.

Unless you are already used to the idea of system cameras with your 35mm /digital shooting, you might probably be better off having just one camera/lens combo.
If you are a RF shooter might be better to choose a Folder?

If you're not used to somewhat heavy 35mm cameras and carrying them around, you might dislike the MF system cameras. Even the lightest system cameras will be as heavy or heavier than them.

Edit- +1 to the poster above!

Sent from Tap-a-talk

Any of those would work and give you outstanding negatives. The image quality of MF vs. 35mm will blow you away.

Coming from 35mm a 6x4.5 with eye level finder would be a smooth transition and the negative's shape would be what you are used to with 35mm. The M645 is small enough and light enough to make for easy handling. Handholding is no problem at all. ISO 400 film will give you plenty of shutter speed.

A TLR and it's waist level finder is a different way of looking at the world. Perhaps a bit of an adjustment to get used to. They are different.

I started with an M645 1000s, loved it, then made the mistake of selling it. Since then I've added 2 Rolleiflex and a Bronica, both of which I love to use but am considering also getting another M645. The Bronica is a bit bulkier and heavier than the M645.

Instead of worrying about interchangeable backs I'd suggest you consider if interchangeable lenses would be suitable for what you like to shoot. Mamiya 645 lenses are superb and not very expensive to add at some point if that suits your style.

takef586 said:

You sound like someone, who needs to discover the basics of photography. You need to slow down, learn how to expose film, how to develop and(possibly) scan. The slower and less automated it will be, the better.
I would suggest, you make a small initial investment on a camera, then figure out about all the above, and then if you are still intending to persevere, go up on the format scale.
The best entry is a TLR - you can try a Yashika Mat 124, or any other decent model with WLF. Start with the most fool proof things: landscapes or portraits from a tripod, Tri X or HP5+ Hc 110 dil H, Flatbed scanner ( as good as you can afford). If you want to wet print, set up your darkroom. Compose and expose carefully, don't change film type or developer type or camera for at least a year. Come back at the end of 2015 and let us know what you would like to do next.

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Takef586, I appreciate your suggestion. I am surely a newcomer to the world of analog photography. I am not so new to the world of photography if you are willing to consider digital, too

In particular I have some rather nice lenses and strobes to go with a FF camera. Now I'm coming to film, and I like the "slowness" of the process. I also like, and it's one of my motivations, the ability to go to larger formats. So I'm trying to set up a darkroom, as you know it requires a bit of searching around nowadays. And I am shooting a 35mm Minolta, which I am greatly enjoying, during the process. But since I plan to go to medium format and I happened to find these cameras in good working conditions (serviced, CLA as I think is said) I asked about them.

Francesco
ps: I am currently shooting hp5+ (and one roll of delta 3200 since I needed in low light). So I am already following your advice...

trythis said:

I am going to jump backwards in my post and ask if you have a light meter, know how to shoot manually. Do you carry multiple lenses with you with your 35m stuff?

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Hi,

thanks for your reply! Yes I know how to shoot manually (exposure and focus) and I use multiple lenses with my 35mm (digital) stuff. So that part should be ok, I hope.

trythis said:

Of the cameras you are looking at I have only used the M645 and due to its age, I would make sure it has been serviced before bothering with it. There is no better way to turn a person off the medium that messed up gear and the price, even at 230 for that kit is too high. The 645E is newer, has fixed viewfinder and back, so it is much more like a standard SLR with built in metering. I know little about the super only that the 645 Pro is newer and suffers from less mechanical issues.

If you have $450 to start with in medium format (nice for you), I would recommend a good working TLR (twin lens reflex) like a rolleicord, rolleiflex or Yashicamat 124G (or without the G) and a trip to the camera shop for a CLA (clean lube adjust). The reason being, they are square format, have great lenses and you can buy the camera, alight meter, pay for the service and some film for $450

If you buy the 645e, wich seems like a decent deal with three lenses, just take one lens the first few outings, there is no reason to start with so much equipment.

But just to get started, I fell for Medium format by random chance with an Agfa Isollette 1 (a lower end folding camera) that I found for $10. I blew up a shot on my first roll to 20"x20" and it looks great! So dont think you have to spend $200 to $500 to start.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I am learning that there is a rather meaningful difference in prices between US and Europe. BTW, I am talking 450 EUR which is more than 450 USD I'm afraid! The camera has been CLA'd, at least. The 645E was luring me, with the three lenses covering wide, normal and a longer focal length.

trythis said:

I hand hold my m645 frequently, rarely do I use a tripod. Setting exposure is slow compared to what you are used to. There are two buttons for firing shutter on that model.
What prism does the M645 come with? The light meters are built into the prisms, so it may not have one. You will need a hand held meter or your DSLR to set exposure (this can be your brain as some will say, but I prefer a device)

Click to expand...

The 645E has an esposimeter, the other two don't.

trythis said:

No, forget about this, Its a nice feature, but unless you came to this knowing you needed it its not important. It just adds to the crap in your bag and you'll waste time fiddling with that instead of taking photos. With our without the interchangeable backs, all these camera use the same film inserts that you can preload and carry with you but again, that is more info than you need right now.

These are roll film cameras, not plate cameras, so just think 120 film and worry about "plate" cameras later. (They are mostly large format, but you can make a plate camera any size you want)

Click to expand...

Thank, I will follow your advice about it. I have much to learn, this will have to wait

Francesco

Paul in Arizona said:

Any of those would work and give you outstanding negatives. The image quality of MF vs. 35mm will blow you away.

Coming from 35mm a 6x4.5 with eye level finder would be a smooth transition and the negative's shape would be what you are used to with 35mm. The M645 is small enough and light enough to make for easy handling. Handholding is no problem at all. ISO 400 film will give you plenty of shutter speed.

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Great, this is promising. I am looking forward to go to Medium Format exactly because of the IQ I expect with respect to 35mm.

Paul in Arizona said:

Instead of worrying about interchangeable backs I'd suggest you consider if interchangeable lenses would be suitable for what you like to shoot. Mamiya 645 lenses are superb and not very expensive to add at some point if that suits your style.

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One of the 3 cameras has three lenses (45, 80 and 135) which could be a nice set to have... Will have to do some research and look at some samples of pictures shot with the three lenses.
I only fear that what I will see will make me wish not to have done it, since it will lead me to part with the money

Francesco

Francesco_from_Rome said:

Hi,

I rekindled my interest in analog photography with the aim to go up to medium format. I am currently shooting a 35mm reflex and I am accustomed with current DSLRs. I've never tried a medium format camera in my life.

I have found the following offers:

1) 645E with 3 lenses (45, 80 and 135 + 2x multiplier) for 450 euros
2) M645 with 80mm lens for 230 euros
3) 645 super with 80mm lens for 280 euros (with waistlevel viewfinder)

As far as I can tell, the first one doesn't have interchangeable back and one of the 2) or 3) has a tilting feature.

Do you think that one of these cameras can be a good fit for a complete beginner in medium format? Or will they be limiting? I would like to get to 6x7 sooner or later, should I directly take one or would the curve be too steep? (I haven't found good offers for 6x7 cameras. But then, I am not in a rush).
Do you think that the prices are reasonable for what I think are cameras in good conditions ?

Thanks for your advices/suggestions.

Francesco

Click to expand...

After shooting 35mm for years and years, I finally got into medium format, and after way too much research, I settled on the Mamiya 645AF. Not only is this a great camera, but a really nice transition from 35mm, or even digital shooting. I believe any of the 645 series will be a great first camera, just have fun with it and feel free to experiment. You'll likely burn a few 'learning' rolls, getting to know the style and settings of the camera. I highly suggest Mamiya for any beginners, or advanced photographers, especially 645. Super easy to shoot, nice big negatives, 16 to a roll, you can't beat it!

Francesco,

I have a Mamiya645 ProTL that I am probably going to sell. I have too many MF cameras

I bought it off APUG and I've only used it twice, this one... (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Let me know if you're interested

Alex.

The 645E would be what I would recommend.

The lenses and the film inserts are fully compatible with the other Mamiya 645 manual focus choices.

You need an eye level finder to make full use of a 6x4.5 camera, and the 645E has one permanently built in.

The 645E offers a grip/thumb wind accessory which makes it very similar to a 35mm SLR. If you look for one, make sure it includes the connector.

I use a Mamiya 645 Pro for my 645 work. I've been considering adding a 645E body as a backup/complement to what I have.

To echo what others have said, the M645 family shoot very much like 35mm SLRs in most respects. With a normal lens and using the left-hand grip, I find I can handhold reliably down to 1/60, but people's comfort and sharpness standards vary a lot and you should do your own experiments in this respect. (I'm mostly left-handed and have a lifetime of playing stringed instruments to build up those muscles with, so I find the LH grip natural---I think the motor-drive grips are right-handed and more 35mm-like.)

Not everyone loves 645 as a format, but it's a convenient evolution from 35mm, and you sure get a bunch of exposures per roll (15, not 16, though). I prefer 6x6 in principle, but I haven't found the 6x6 camera that would replace 35mm for me as the M645 has (mostly) done.

-NT

^^^ what he said. I use an M645. It doesn't matter to me it doesn't have an interchangeable back. If you keep a look out you can get a good one for 250EU with a couple of lenses. You will probably have to change the foams but its a DIY job. It handles somewhat like a 35mm, just a bit of a brick. Even with a well-padded strap it's still a bit of a lump, but it is (just about) carryable on a walk. I can't contemplate a 6x6 SLR - too big and heavy for my style. I use a yash and a zeiss folder for that.

In my opinion, moving to medium format from 35mm is not hard at all and it doesn't matter whether it's 645, 6x6, 6x7 or another size.

Film loading/unloading is a little different.

On many medium format cameras (and some 35mm cameras) you have to use a separate light meter.

If you shoot a medium format camera with removable backs you have to remember to remove/replace the darkslide.

Your depth of field is going to be shallower because you are using longer lenses to get the same perspective. A 50mm lens is considered normal on a 35mm camera. Roughly 75mm to 110mm is considered normal on a medium format camera depending on the size (645, 6x6, 6x7, etc.).

Don't be intimated by medium format. It's basically just about as easy as 35mm.

645E looks to be a good deal if not a great deal.
Keh would sell a kit similar to that for similar money without the 2X extender.

When the 645E was introduced, it's market was students. It has the built in finder and meter, for a student ($$$ deprived)
the inserts saved a bit of money. The one you're looking at has been serviced so that would add around $100. to an unknown
camera.

The Mamiya 645s (any of them with a grip and prism) will operate much like a big 35mm SLR. It's actually the system I've chosen (I chose the 645 Pro TL with WG401 and AE prism) as I start to explore medium format, which is going really well so far. The only major differences that it's trickier to focus (due to the longer focal lengths) and film loading with backs and/or inserts, rather than just sticking film in the camera.

It's quickly become my favorite camera, and my go-to for most things where I need higher quality. The tonality is so much better and it just has this... look (that I can't quite explain very well, sorry) that makes it look so much better than my 35mm shots.

I just got a roll of Portra back from the Darkroom for a Senior photo shoot, and with every roll I get back from the lab, I feel less and less inclination to get out my 35mm's and my digital. I've attached a few if you'd like to look a little bit. The one at the lake is with the 80mm 2.8 (I got that for... $70? if I remember right?) and the others were with the 150mm 3.5, which was about the same price as the 80mm.