Are chemicals universal?

Sowulo · Mar 21, 2017

Hello everyone,

I'm new to film photography (and photography in general). I'm looking in to developing films myself and I have a noob question. Are developing chemicals universal to all B&W films? All brands? All speeds? If I have Kodak TMax 400 can I develop with Ilford chemistry? Are there film/chemistry combinations that doesn't work well or doesn't wortk at all? Thanks in advance.
P.S. Sorry if someone asked these questions before. I just didn't know what to search for...

Regards

Sowulo

Anon Ymous · Mar 21, 2017

Yes, they are.

Larry the sailor · Mar 21, 2017

Essentially universal but there are some combinations that do better together.

In case you haven't already found it - http://www.digitaltruth.com/

Julie McLeod · Mar 21, 2017

Hi Sowulo, I suggest checking out the Massive Developing Chart. (Larry pointed to it above). It's available online or as a smartphone app you can have with you wherever you develop. Enter the film and developer and it provides the timing for all the steps of developing. It can also convert the developing times according to the temperature.

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php

edit: please note that subsequent posts from more experienced members advise against using this resource.

gary in nj · Mar 21, 2017

All brand B&W film can be processed in all chemistries, so from that standpoint there is a universal nature to chemicals. What are not universal are the results. Different chemistries produce different results. Some allow for more grain and almost all have their own texture/contrast. And everyone you ask will give you a different reason for which is "best" and be able to support their choice with a stack of photos.

Anon Ymous · Mar 21, 2017

Contrary to what the previous posters said, I'd say don't base your development on information from the massive dev chart. It's not that it's useless, it can be a useful resource, but only as a last resort IMHO. The first place where you should look at is the manufacturer's own datasheets. This will not cover all film - developer combinations, but gives reliable information. If you can't find development times for your film - developer combination, then you can have a look at the massive dev chart. The problem with it is that anyone can practically submit development times. As a result, one's own preferences like scanning vs enlarging etc can make these times quite problematic in many cases.

Julie McLeod · Mar 21, 2017

Anon Ymous said:
Contrary to what the previous posters said, I'd say don't base your development on information from the massive dev chart. It's not that it's useless, it can be a useful resource, but only as a last resort IMHO. The first place where you should look at is the manufacturer's own datasheets. This will not cover all film - developer combinations, but gives reliable information. If you can't find development times for your film - developer combination, then you can have a look at the massive dev chart. The problem with it is that anyone can practically submit development times. As a result, one's own preferences like scanning vs enlarging etc can make these times quite problematic in many cases.

Doesn't the Massive Dev Chart use the manufacturer recommendation where available and user provided data where the manufacturer datasheet doesn't address a particular film stock? I may well be wrong but that's what I thought I was seeing when I first started using it.

Luckless · Mar 21, 2017

Standard Black and White film makes use of the same developers, and they are mostly interchangeable with variations on end result.

However do be aware that there are black and white films that make use of different chemistry - Seems that you generally have to go out of your way to get your hands on C41 black and white film (developed in the same processes as colour film - The option you had for the old 1 hour film processing services), but it is probably a good idea to be aware that it exists to avoid mistakes.

Also maybe some reversal films? I've yet to play with black and white reversal films, and beyond having seen they exist I have no idea what's possibly different with their chemistry.

Anon Ymous · Mar 21, 2017

Julie McLeod said:
Doesn't the Massive Dev Chart use the manufacturer recommendation where available and user provided data where the manufacturer datasheet doesn't address a particular film stock? I may well be wrong but that's what I thought I was seeing when I first started using it.

"Official" times may be there, along with user submitted times. You can see differing recommendations for the same film, developer, exposure index. Which one is "better"? Then all too often there is a note mentioning that "Data is taken from a previous version of this film. Starting point time remains the same". So, that's why I recommend starting with the manufacturer's datasheets and resort to the MDC, when there's no alternative.

Wallendo · Mar 21, 2017

For most films, developers are universal. However, there are a few "niche" films for which specific developers are suggest, such as Foma RetroPan, and some of the Adox films.

Julie McLeod · Mar 21, 2017

Thanks for the reply, Anon Ymous. I've used mainly very common developer and film combinations but for the ones I've used, I have found the times given in the Massive Dev Chart match the data sheets. I gather that's not always the case so I'll be sure to check any new combinations I use.

RPC · Mar 21, 2017

Sowulo, being new, you may not yet understand how changing development time affects b&w film. Increasing development time increases contrast, and decreasing development time decreases contrast. The published times should be used as a starting point for you to run your own tests to determine a development time with your particular film and developer combination that gives you a negative contrast that makes the best looking prints on your paper (assuming you are printing your negatives).

flavio81 · Mar 21, 2017

Sowulo said:
Hello everyone,

I'm new to film photography (and photography in general). I'm looking in to developing films myself and I have a noob question. Are developing chemicals universal to all B&W films? All brands? All speeds? If I have Kodak TMax 400 can I develop with Ilford chemistry? Are there film/chemistry combinations that doesn't work well or doesn't wortk at all? Thanks in advance.
P.S. Sorry if someone asked these questions before. I just didn't know what to search for...

Regards

Sowulo

Hi Sowulo,

For B/W photography there are four steps:

1. Development
2. Stop Bath
3. Fix
4. Wash

1. Developer converts the exposed silver to metallic (black) silver. B/W developers are universal, but, sometimes some developers are preferred over others for certain films. Some developers give a bit less grain, some developers give a bit more speed...

Even B/W paper developer can be used for developing B/W negative film, but results will not be optimal (i.e. too much contrast, too much grain). But this illustrates how universal can developers be.

2. Stop bath is basically an acid solution that neutralizes the developer. It can be made with vinegar/acetic acid, citric acid, and perhaps other formulas. This is universal as well.

3. Fix removes the unexposed silver left in the film. It also, sometimes, helps to clear the film base. This is also an universal chemical. Even for paper development, it is the same chemical, typically sodium thiosulfate ("hypo").

4. Wash should remove the residues left in the film, like hypo residues. So the additives that you can use on this step are also universal. There additives for hypo removal, also additives for washing like Kodak Photo-flo which helps achieving a good drying of the film.

flavio81 · Mar 21, 2017

RPC said:
Sowulo, being new, you may not yet understand how changing development time affects b&w film. Increasing development time increases contrast, and decreasing development time decreases contrast.

+1

... and temperature as well. More temperature, more development activity, which is similar to increasing time.

So temperature and time go together as a combination.

On some datasheets (for example Ilford datasheets) you can find a table that allow you to adjust time for a different temperature. For example the datasheet says "8 minutes at 20°C" but you want to use 18°C; then you look on the table and find the adjusted time (i.e. 11 minutes), and then you can use 18°C.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 21, 2017

Anon Ymous said:
Contrary to what the previous posters said, I'd say don't base your development on information from the massive dev chart. It's not that it's useless, it can be a useful resource, but only as a last resort IMHO. The first place where you should look at is the manufacturer's own datasheets. This will not cover all film - developer combinations, but gives reliable information. If you can't find development times for your film - developer combination, then you can have a look at the massive dev chart. The problem with it is that anyone can practically submit development times. As a result, one's own preferences like scanning vs enlarging etc can make these times quite problematic in many cases.

+1

In the past several people on APUG have pointed out some glaring errors in their information. AFAIK no one on that site checks anything for correctness. In other words its not per reviewed.

Sowulo · Mar 21, 2017

Wow so many helpful people. Thanks a lot for your time and patience. That prety much answers all my questions. For now...

tedr1 · Mar 21, 2017

I have always found Ilford products good quality and consistent and they publish detailed information sheets that are available from their website, follow the instructions carefully. www.ilfordphoto.com

LAG · Mar 22, 2017

Excuse me Sowulo

Sowulo said:
Are developing chemicals universal to all B&W films? All brands? All speeds?

If by "universal" you mean that the developing chemicals reacts with film the answer is Yes. If by "developing chemicals" you mean "B&W" chemicals with all B&W films, the answer is Yes (used in the correct order, of course).

The "however-answer" is slightly longer to explain.

Sowulo said:
If I have Kodak TMax 400 can I develop with Ilford chemistry?

Yes, you can. Ask yourself this: "Why does Ilford have more than one chemist?"

Sowulo said:
Are there film/chemistry combinations that doesn't work well or doesn't wortk at all?

Yes. (see previous answer)

If you are new (as you said above), you should pick some books about all this!

All the Best!

LAG · Mar 22, 2017

RPC said:
...being new, you may not yet understand how changing development time affects b&w film...

I disagree with this!

RPC · Mar 22, 2017

LAG said:
I disagree with this!

Why? If he is new to it, he is not going to know a lot. Notice I said may not yet understand.

Luckless · Mar 22, 2017

Being aware of it and having a strong understanding of the effects of different chemistry/timings to tailor an image to a specific look are kind of two different things.

Limiting your variables while you're still learning is a good idea. Keep good notes, and closely inspect what you've achieved. Change things slowly to avoid drawing false early conclusions based on unnoticed error and all that.

LAG · Mar 22, 2017

RPC said:
Why? If he is new to it, he is not going to know a lot. Notice I said may not yet understand.

I apologize, I have been carried away by the contrary thought, I have always taken the view that having no experience does not imply having no knowledge, but obviously is not this case with the OP. It's my fault, sorry!

Sowulo · Mar 22, 2017

Ok guys. There is no need for argument. I appreciate your comments and oppinion. I'm new to photography but not to chemistry. I'm aware that concentration and temperature has an impact on reaction time. However I'm going to stick to instructions just to be safe.
Thanks again

flavio81 · Mar 22, 2017

Sowulo said:
Ok guys. There is no need for argument. I appreciate your comments and oppinion. I'm new to photography but not to chemistry. I'm aware that concentration and temperature has an impact on reaction time. However I'm going to stick to instructions just to be safe.
Thanks again

Sowulo,

Stick to a typical developer (like D76) with a standard temperature (like 20°C) and the manufacturer time until you get good results. After you can consistently get good results, then you can try changing variables, like trying other developer, etc.

Arklatexian · Apr 10, 2017

Sowulo said:
Ok guys. There is no need for argument. I appreciate your comments and oppinion. I'm new to photography but not to chemistry. I'm aware that concentration and temperature has an impact on reaction time. However I'm going to stick to instructions just to be safe.
Thanks again

Hmmmmm! I detect some real wisdom in the last sentence of the above paragraph. Fortunately there should be time enough for you to make some really good mistakes in the future after getting away from the "instructions". Been there, done that........Regards!

Are chemicals universal?

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