Archiving and toning -- Options

[dcy]

At my current stage in this hobby I haven't yet made any prints that I really care about preserving. But obviously, the goal is to change that. I'm slowly learning to take better photographs, learning to develop film, and learning to make prints. I might even want to preserve some of my beginner prints to record my progress.

My first question: How important is it to make prints archival? If I wash a print properly and put it in an album so it's not indirect contact with the air, how quickly will it change color?


I have discovered three processes for making prints archival. Here they are, sorted by price:

(1) Adox Adostab II Sistan Image Stabilizer (link)

No toning and does not increase Dmax . Looks easy to use and a $10.49 bottle can stabilize 40 sqm.

Cost: $0.013 per 8x10 print.


(2) Sepia Toning

Sepia looks nice . The product from Foma says 5 sqm and costs $30.

Cost: $0.26 per 8x10 print.


(3) Selenium Toning

Selenium increases Dmax but is toxic .The product from Harman has a capacity of 25 8x10 prints and costs $39.

Cost: $1.56 per 8x10 print.



My second question: Do you have any thoughts on archival methods? Is there something I should know about these options that I might not know right now?

 

[warden]

Selenium also can also change the color of the print, which some like and I do not.

My relatives have family photos that have been stored in folios for over a hundred years and they look fantastic. The main thing I think is to protect prints from light and air If you want them to last. And of course rinse well after processing.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

At my current stage in this hobby I haven't yet made any prints that I really care about preserving. But obviously, the goal is to change that. I'm slowly learning to take better photographs, learning to develop film, and learning to make prints. I might even want to preserve some of my beginner prints to record my progress.

My first question: How important is it to make prints archival? If I wash a print properly and put it in an album so it's not indirect contact with the air, how quickly will it change color?


I have discovered three processes for making prints archival. Here they are, sorted by price:

(1) Adox Adostab II Sistan Image Stabilizer (link)

No toning and does not increase Dmax . Looks easy to use and a $10.49 bottle can stabilize 40 sqm.

Cost: $0.013 per 8x10 print.


(2) Sepia Toning

Sepia looks nice . The product from Foma says 5 sqm and costs $30.

Cost: $0.26 per 8x10 print.


(3) Selenium Toning

Selenium increases Dmax but is toxic .The product from Harman has a capacity of 25 8x10 prints and costs $39.

Cost: $1.56 per 8x10 print.



My second question: Do you have any thoughts on archival methods? Is there something I should know about these options that I might not know right now?

feel free to take a look at this: sorry file too big;need to zip first.here you go. quick answer is good washing and Sistan or better good washing and indirect sepia toning is most archival. an image stability of 100 years+ is achievable this way!

 

[MattKing]

Speaking of course of black and white darkroom photographic prints....
I have 50+ year old prints that look fine - and they were printed by a high school student with only short experience and knowledge based on nothing more than the then standard Kodak instructions for amateurs.
That high school student was, of course, me.
Pay most attention to thorough and complete fixing, followed by thorough and complete washing - aided by a wash aid where appropriate. Follow that with careful storage - keep away from acid bearing mounting and storage materials. Watch out as well for moisture, and too much light.
Despite the last note, I have prints that have been in frames behind (but not in contact with) glass up on our walls for more than a decade that still look great.
The toning options can help, but I prefer toning for image tone, and then accepting any accompanying longevity benefit with gratitude. Be aware that in order to obtain a meaningful improvement in longevity with selenium toning, you need to fully tone - which usually means a distinct and definite change in image tone.

 

[Photosandpotatoes]

@RalphLambrecht this is so helpful! Thank you for sharing.

 

[mshchem]

Follow the instructions.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Selenium increases Dmax but is toxic .The product from Harman has a capacity of 25 8x10 prints and costs $39.

Cost: $1.56 per 8x10 print.

Your math is way off, as you did not read the information correctly. At 1+3, with a 1 Litre bottle, you can make much more than 25 8x10 prints, as you don't need more than 500-600ml liquid total for that size. Moreover, since you are only looking for archival quality and not color change, you will probably use the 1+20 dilution, which will increase even more the number of prints you can make with one bottle.

 

[Craig]

Making sure that the fixer is still good (do a residual silver test) and the prints properly washed is the most important part. Toning won't salvage an improperly fixed or washed print.

Look for posts here by Photo Engineer. Unfortunately he has since passed away, but he was a Kodak Photo Engineer. You won't find a more knowledgeable person than him about all aspects of film based photography. As an example, he is one of the co-inventors of the colour negative C-41 process. He has made many posts about archival procedures.

His contributions are all based on intimate knowledge of the work he did at Kodak, and his presence here is greatly missed.

 

[dcy]

Your math is way off, as you did not read the information correctly. At 1+3, with a 1 Litre bottle, you can make much more than 25 8x10 prints,

The instructions that you posted say "at least 25 prints". That does not imply that you can make "much more than 25 prints". I'm not saying it's not true; I'm saying that that's not what the information sheet says. So the problem was not in my reading. [edit: I was wrong]

In any event, I concede your point that I did not include an option for the 1+20 dilution. I could have included a "no toning" variation of selenium at 1+20 and that'd bring its cost down to the same ball park as sepia (but again, without the toning).

But that begs the question: Without toning, why would I use selenium instead of Adostab? --- I do think there's an answer. If I recall correctly, 1+20 selenium will still increase Dmax... I think. If that's correct, then the options are:

Adostab --- No toning, no Dmax increase, $0.013 per 8x10 print.
Sepia --- Toning, no Dmax increase, $0.26 per 8x10 print.
Selenium 1+20 --- No toning, Dmax increase, $0.32 per 8x10 print. [edit: I was wrong]
Selenium 1+3 --- Toning, Dmax increase, $1.56 per 8x10 print. [edit: I was wrong]

 

[dcy]

Making sure that the fixer is still good (do a residual silver test)\

How do I do a residual silver test? That sounds different from the usual "clip" test where you put in a piece of exposed film and see how long it takes for it to become clear.

and the prints properly washed is the most important part. Toning won't salvage an improperly fixed or washed print.

Oh. Thanks.

Look for posts here by Photo Engineer. Unfortunately he has since passed away, but he was a Kodak Photo Engineer. You won't find a more knowledgeable person than him about all aspects of film based photography. As an example, he is one of the co-inventors of the colour negative C-41 process. He has made many posts about archival procedures.

I had no idea that he was a co-inventor of C-41!

I knew he was en engineer at Kodak and I read several of his posts for a long time before I joined this forum. I was very saddened when I learned about his passing. I wish I had had the opportunity to speak with him.

 

[Craig]

Your math is way off, as you did not read the information correctly. At 1+3, with a 1 Litre bottle, you can make much more than 25 8x10 prints, as you don't need more than 500-600ml liquid total for that size. Moreover, since you are only looking for archival quality and not color change, you will probably use the 1+20 dilution, which will increase even more the number of prints you can make with one bottle.

Yes, even mixed 1+3, you use 250ml of concentrate to make a litre of working solution. Assuming a minimum of 25 prints per litre (depending upon the particulars of the print) The cost is as follows:
$39/4 = $9.75.
This treats 25 prints, so the maximum cost is $9.75/25=$ 0.39 per print.

 

[MattKing]

The instructions that you posted say "at least 25 prints". That does not imply that you can make "much more than 25 prints". I'm not saying it's not true; I'm saying that that's not what the information sheet says. So the problem was not in my reading.

You missed the fact that the diluted toner is used for the calculation.
A litre bottle makes 4 litres of 1 + 3 working solution.
Each of those working solution litres is enough for 25 prints.

 

[dcy]

Speaking of course of black and white darkroom photographic prints....
I have 50+ year old prints that look fine - and they were printed by a high school student with only short experience and knowledge based on nothing more than the then standard Kodak instructions for amateurs.
That high school student was, of course, me.

Pay most attention to thorough and complete fixing, followed by thorough and complete washing - aided by a wash aid where appropriate.

Will do.

Follow that with careful storage - keep away from acid bearing mounting and storage materials.

Ok. This might be a dumb question. But how do I know if the product I'm using has acid? --- Alternatively, what can I do to make sure that it doesn't? Here is the album that I'm currently using:

Amazon.com

It has adhesive plastic sheets that are in full contact with the print. If those sheets, or the sticky substance they cover them with, are acidic, I'll need to change to a different storage solution.

The toning options can help, but I prefer toning for image tone, and then accepting any accompanying longevity benefit with gratitude. Be aware that in order to obtain a meaningful improvement in longevity with selenium toning, you need to fully tone - which usually means a distinct and definite change in image tone.

I'm confused. Alex was just telling me that Selenium 1+20 will protect the print but produce no toning. I heard the same thing from John Finch on YouTube.

 

[dcy]

You missed the fact that the diluted toner is used for the calculation.
A litre bottle makes 4 litres of 1 + 3 working solution.
Each of those working solution litres is enough for 25 prints.

Oh! Crap! Thanks for the correction.

Yeah. I absolutely did not realize that. @Alex Benjamin was right. I did not read the information correctly. I thought "toning solution" was just a term for "the solution in this bottle", but the previous paragraph makes it clear they're talking about the working solution.

 

[MattKing]

As for the various print "stabilizers", like Adostab and Sistan, approach them with caution.
They are better suited to commercial lab uses, as their role is to speed up greatly commercial throughput, with the associated protection of commercial profit. If not used exactly correctly, they are likely to actually cause damage.

 

[dcy]

As for the various print "stabilizers", like Adostab and Sistan, approach them with caution.
They are better suited to commercial lab uses, as their role is to speed up greatly commercial throughput, with the associated protection of commercial profit. If not used exactly correctly, they are likely to actually cause damage.

!!!!!!!

 

[Craig]

How do I do a residual silver test?

It's here: https://stores.photoformulary.com/ft-1-fixer-test/

Also:

 

[MattKing]

Ok. This might be a dumb question. But how do I know if the product I'm using has acid? --- Alternatively, what can I do to make sure that it doesn't? Here is the album that I'm currently using:

Amazon.com
It has adhesive plastic sheets that are in full contact with the print. If those sheets, or the sticky substance they cover them with, are acidic, I'll need to change to a different storage solution.

Those albums are great in one way, and lousy in another.
You would use them for prints that will be handled frequently and by many people, often with sticky fingers .
The sheets protect against things like that.
But otherwise, having anything pressed against the prints is usually terrible for them!

As for acid free materials - tape, mat board, storage boxes - they are labelled as such.
Good quality framing resources have lots of useful information about that. A good source is former Photrio advertiser Frame Destination: @fdi

 

[dcy]

Wait... Does this mean that Selenium 1+20 is cheaper than Sepia?

I re-read the information sheet from Foma's sepia toner, which is what I'm using for reference. I'm pretty sure it says 5 sqm for the entire product, not the working solution.

Therefore...

Adox Adostab --- Avoid. If I use it wrong I'll damage the print.
Foma's Sepia --- $0.26 per 8x10 print.
Selenium 1+3 --- $0.39 per 8x10 print.
Selenium 1+20 --- Dunno, but probably a lot less than $0.39 per 8x10 print.

 

[MattKing]

I'm confused. Alex was just telling me that Selenium 1+20 will protect the print but produce no toning. I heard the same thing from John Finch on YouTube.

That reflects somewhat old understanding of the result from selenium toning.
You can use high dilutions, but in order to obtain high levels of protection with most papers, you need to tone for a very long time, and you need to accept a substantial change in image tone. Roughly speaking, the completeness of the protection is directly related to how much the tone changes.
Little or no tone change = useful but small amount of protection.
Large amount of tone change = significant and large amount of protection.
Many don't like the "eggplant" tone that strong selenium toning imparts to many papers.
FWIW, I prefer the image tone change that the many different sulfide based toners - like sepia toner - impart, and it is a bit easier to tell when they have been fully toned.

Toning for artistic and aesthetic effect is a subject that I'm particularly interested in, and there is associated longevity benefits as well.
But for now, fix well, wash well and store your prints well. You can look into toning later, because you don't have to do it right away.

If you are looking for a great resource, there is a great book, which is unfortunately a bit hard to get at a reasonable cost: Dr. Tim Rudman's The Master Photographer's Toning Book: https://www.timrudman.com/content/toning-book-reprint

 

[Craig]

Selenium toner is also quite smelly. Do it in a place that is well ventilated. I never do it in the house, for example.

I believe it releases ammonia during the process, it's not a nice smell.

 

[Bill Burk]

One chief benefit of archival processing is that you're able to say that you do it.

 

[dcy]

That reflects somewhat old understanding of the result from selenium toning.
You can use high dilutions, but in order to obtain high levels of protection with most papers, you need to tone for a very long time, and you need to accept a substantial change in image tone. Roughly speaking, the completeness of the protection is directly related to how much the tone changes.
Little or no tone change = useful but small amount of protection.
Large amount of tone change = significant and large amount of protection.

Thanks for the explanation!

FWIW, I prefer the image tone change that the many different sulfide based toners - like sepia toner - impart, and it is a bit easier to tell when they have been fully toned.

Toning for artistic and aesthetic effect is a subject that I'm particularly interested in, and there is associated longevity benefits as well.
But for now, fix well, wash well and store your prints well. You can look into toning later, because you don't have to do it right away.

Will do. While I learn the process I'll focus on fixing, washing, and storage.

I do like the look of sepia. I will probably start toning soon after I start getting prints that I like. Since nobody here has said that sepia is less good at archival than selenium, I am free to choose purely on aesthetic preference.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

But otherwise, having anything pressed against the prints is usually terrible for them!

Presumably it's ok for the prints to be on top of one another as long as there's no weight pressing them together?

As for acid free materials - tape, mat board, storage boxes - they are labelled as such.

Thanks! I found acid-free boxes and mat board on Amazon.

I do like albums though. I'm trying to find a scrapbook-type album that doesn't use those adhesive sheets and says "acid free". So far, the ones that say acid free are ones that have plastic sleeves where you put in the print. So you'd still have something pressed against the print.

 

[koraks]

There's an eternal misunderstanding when it comes to 'archival' toning and it seems that it just doesn't want to go away. Protection of a silver print through toning only goes as far as the extent of toning. All untoned silver remains as susceptible to degradation as it originally was. Complete toning in e.g. sepia or selenium gives a very distinct visual shift in image hue; sepia towards yellow or brown (and anything in-between) and selenium to an brick-red hue. I know of virtually nobody who tones to completeness in selenium. Many people give a slight toning in selenium believing it enhances the durability of the print, while this enhancement is severely debatable and most likely mythological more so than factual.

Protection mechanisms that function through some kind of adsorption without a visible shift can potentially be effective while going to completeness and at the same time retaining the original look of the original. I understand that products like Sistan / Adostab are in that category, but IDK whether they're as effective as, say, toning to completeness with sepia.

Toning to completion in a replacement system with a more noble metal (platinum, gold) will also enhance the archival stability of the image itself, but carries drawbacks. Image hue again may shift, but the noble metal itself can be a problem - e.g. platinum is an effective catalyst and is known to accelerate decay of the paper base itself under certain conditions.

The good news is that an untoned silver gelatin print has a pretty favorable archival outlook as long as it's stored somewhat decently. Even poorly processed and stored prints from, say, the 1940s often survive quite nicely in family albums especially if stored in a dry place. The main damage seen is often degradation and discoloration of the paper base, and silvering out if they prints weren't fixed and washed properly. If you properly process (fix & wash) a silver gelatin print and store it in a dry place, it'll last for centuries in principle. Most prints will of course never make it that far anyway because nobody wants to keep them around for that long. I'd be hesitant to put much effort into preparing prints for an eternity that will never materialize. YMMV.

 

[Lachlan Young]

The thing in selenium toner that enhances archival protection isn't the selenium.