• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Archival Stability Ilford XP2 Super developed in B&W Chemistry

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,335
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
Well frankly you haven't actually given a reason(s) you have made statements without citing evidence. I am simply looking for an explanation as to why, per se, C41 chromogenic film gives a greater exposure latitude when developed in C41 as compared to the same film when developed in B&W chemicals.

I am simply seeking reasons and more knowledge of how "thing work"

pentaxuser
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
55,141
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
The "latitude" is mostly toward over-exposure.
Simplifying tremendously:
Dye clouds get smoother when they become more dense.
Film grain gets "Lumpier" when it becomes more dense.
Caution: "Lumpier" is not a generally accepted technical term.
 

Svenedin

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
1,191
Location
Surrey, United Kingdom
Format
Med. Format RF
The "latitude" is mostly toward over-exposure.
Simplifying tremendously:
Dye clouds get smoother when they become more dense.
Film grain gets "Lumpier" when it becomes more dense.
Caution: "Lumpier" is not a generally accepted technical term.

Yes for C41 processed XP2 Ilford say (according to their data sheet) it can be exposed at up to EI 800 (one stop under exposed) or as low as EI 50 (3 stops over exposed). I've tried it at 800, 400, 200, 100 and 50. It becomes really annoying to print at 100 and 50 (the negatives are very dense). At 800 it's a bit thin but still prints quite well. I prefer it at 200 or 400 but to be honest I don't really like it that much. I just did some experiments and decided that if I had to rely on lab C41 it would be acceptable but whilst I still do standard B&W processing at home (but not C41 at home) I'd rather stick to conventional films.
 

Nihil Abstat

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Messages
54
Location
Klmbs Ahia
Format
35mm
The "latitude" is mostly toward over-exposure.
Simplifying tremendously:
Dye clouds get smoother when they become more dense.
Film grain gets "Lumpier" when it becomes more dense.
Caution: "Lumpier" is not a generally accepted technical term.

Yep, that's what I was saying...
 

Nihil Abstat

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Messages
54
Location
Klmbs Ahia
Format
35mm

I gave it already. Callier effect absent.
 
  • Raghu Kuvempunagar
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Don't want to feed trolls. As far as I'm concerned, my concerns were addressed by Post #5 and #6. Re

Nihil Abstat

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Messages
54
Location
Klmbs Ahia
Format
35mm
maybe another reason the OP is processing it in b/w chemistry is because the OP doesn't want to deal with color processing ? ...

Then why use it at all? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to use it in this way. There is no advantage whatsoever over conventional B&W film.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
55,141
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Then why use it at all? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to use it in this way. There is no advantage whatsoever over conventional B&W film.
Incorrect.
In many places, there is no easily accessible, competitively priced, reasonable quality commercial processing for traditional black and white film.
So if you want to be able to choose between commercial processing and your own processing, having the option to do so with XP2 is attractive.
I know I sometimes have a backlog of film waiting to be processed. How much does it add to quality of life to know that one can either spend the time and effort to do it yourself, or spend the money to have the reasonably local lab do it for you?
 

Billy Axeman

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
523
Location
Netherlands
Format
Digital
I agree with Nihil Abstat. OP is processing his own film (post #1), and technically there is a disadvantage developing XP2 in B/W chemicals. So, why doesn't he use a decent B/W film. That is still the question.
 

mnemosyne

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
759
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
I agree with Nihil Abstat. OP is processing his own film (post #1), and technically there is a disadvantage developing XP2 in B/W chemicals. So, why doesn't he use a decent B/W film. That is still the question.

Because it's there, to quote a famous Englishman, or, because it's there in his fridge, to quote the OP
 
  • Raghu Kuvempunagar
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Don't want to feed trolls. As far as I'm concerned, my concerns were addressed by Post #5 and #6. Re

AgX

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,972
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
I am simply looking for an explanation as to why, per se, C41 chromogenic film gives a greater exposure latitude when developed in C41 as compared to the same film when developed in B&W chemicals.



The "latitude" is mostly toward over-exposure.
Simplifying tremendously:
Dye clouds get smoother when they become more dense.
Film grain gets "Lumpier" when it becomes more dense.
Caution: "Lumpier" is not a generally accepted technical term.

I gave it already. Callier effect absent.



Both completely off track...

The benefit behind chromogenic b&w film is that by seperating the sensitive part from the image forming part one gains much more freedom in characteristic curve design than with a one-stage concept as in classic b&w film.

Agfa mainly played this concept, whereas Kodak leaned more to the advantage of standardized commercial processing and printing.
 

AgX

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,972
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
Well, hinting at non-cromogenic development to be on the safe side I wrote "not to be expected"...

Furthermore the OP employs a staining developer, thus will receive a dye image in addition. This of course complicates longevity matters.
 

Martin Rickards

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
390
Location
Asturias, Spain
Format
35mm
It seems that we have forgotten the question of longevity mentioned in the OP. Is it worthwhile putting formaldehyde in the final rinse?
 

Svenedin

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
1,191
Location
Surrey, United Kingdom
Format
Med. Format RF
Because it's there, to quote a famous Englishman, or, because it's there in his fridge, to quote the OP

If he was given a lot of it for nothing it might make some sense but if he bought it knowing he was going to develop it in B&W chemicals then it makes very little sense unless of course it's a question of local availability of conventional B&W films.
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
Then why use it at all? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to use it in this way. There is no advantage whatsoever over conventional B&W film.

who cares if there is no " advantage " .. or "makes no sense" the OP likes his results.
 
Last edited:

Billy Axeman

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
523
Location
Netherlands
Format
Digital
who cares if there is no " advantage " .. or "makes no sense" the OP likes his results.

A man decides he wants to bake a white bread. He takes 1 kg of whole wheat and starts processing it with his own recipe until he has white flour. He puts it in the baking machine together with sugar, salt, dry yeast etc., and he enjoys the work he is doing.

In the mean time his wife enters the kitchen to see if she can help, and wonders what he is doing. She asks "Why are you buying whole wheat when you want to bake a white bread". He is surprised and replies somewhat irritated: "Well, I like the result".
 
Last edited:

Gerald C Koch

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
8,131
Location
Southern USA
Format
Multi Format

The judgement of the marketplace is better than that of single APUUG members. This film was discontinued due to lack of sales. I don't know about others but this fact shouts in my ears. Now were it not for a similar Ilford film I would say that this idea is more appealing. Like a film then buy lots of it or it will go away. Law of Acquisition #153.
 
Last edited:

JBrunner

Moderator
Moderator
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,429
Location
PNdub
Format
Medium Format
Mountain climbing serves no useful purpose to me. But all who wish to do so, may do so, and I'm not going to question why. Or to wit; the why question is not part of the OP and at this point I consider it a dead horse that is being beaten to the point of derailing the intent of the OP, so we will kindly knock it off, or I will prune the thread accordingly.
That will be all.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
55,141
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Gerald:
XP2 Super is a current Ilford film. Processed in C41 chemicals it yields black and white negatives without any orange mask. Those negatives print well in an enlarger, and they are excellent for scanning too.
The Kodak version is the discontinued film. When processed in C41 chemicals it yielded black and white negatives with the characteristic orange mask, which were easier to print using the colour paper found in most mini-labs.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,335
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
Well as has been said, the OP is clearly getting what he wants from XP2+ developed in the trad B&W process and he has the assurance he needs from Ian Grant and I think one other that his specific concern has been answered.

Are XP2+ negatives as easy to print and are the prints as good when processed in B&W chemicals is a pertinent question, of course for those of us who haven't tried this route. Fujilove gave a link to what turns out to be an e book which might give the answer to my question above but I am not a convert to e-books.

The OP doesn't say whether he has made prints from his negatives but I have a feeling others on Photrio may have

So can I ask, for my own enlightenment, if anyone else point me to examples of prints from XP2+ negative processed on trad B&W chemicals or at least describe how easy they feel such negatives might be to produce prints from ? I extend this request to the OP as well in case he has prints he has made.

Thanks

pentaxuser
 
  • Svenedin
  • Deleted
  • Reason: Off topic

removed account4

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid

hey matt

just to add to what you said
not sure who told this to me but the xpsuper negatives
were sometimes printed in a mini lab but the lab sometimes had to
sandwich a sheet of color negative film that had nothing on it but the orange mask
this person told me the brand of film to, "kodak gold"

but YMMV