Archival Stability Ilford XP2 Super developed in B&W Chemistry

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 19, 2018

I've had some success developing Ilford XP2 Super ISO 400 film in Obsidian Aqua, a staining developer designed by Jay Defehr. Though XP2 Super is a film designed for C41 process, I prefer to develop it as traditional B&W film as I need not rely on commercial labs for developing the film and I can use the developer I've brewed at home. In both 135 and 120 formats, I've got negatives that have good contrast, fine grain at ISO 100, and nice tonality.

One concern I've now is about the colour couplers used in XP2 Super film. In C41 process the couplers would react with the developer and form a dye cloud around the silver grain that was exposed to light. When developed in B&W developers such as Obsidian Aqua I'm not sure what happens to these couplers. I suspect they remain in the film even after fixing and washing. Can the couplers cause any harm to the negative over a period of time?

Another concern I've is about the risk of fungus attack on XP2 Super negatives developed in B&W developers such as Obsidian Aqua. In C41 process the negatives are bathed in stabiliser which contains fungicide. As the negatives have no silver, the stabiliser bath is a must to protect them. On the other hand, my XP2 Super negatives have silver in them and I don't use a stabiliser. Is the silver in XP2 Super adequate to protect the negatives from fungus attack?

pentaxuser · Feb 19, 2018

A set of good questions, if I may say so, answers to which I look forward too as well

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 20, 2018

pentaxuser said:
A set of good questions, if I may say so, answers to which I look forward too as well

pentaxuser

Thanks! After reading some old threads, I'm wondering if a bath in formalin+photoflo+water would solve both problems?

Nihil Abstat · Feb 22, 2018

Why not use a regular B&W film? I don't understand what you are doing.

Ian Grant · Feb 22, 2018

If you are processing in B&W developer it's going to have the same stability as any other B&W film.

Ian

AgX · Feb 22, 2018

In C-41 processing typically couplers remain in the emulsion. These may cause problems with the formed dyes. A interaction with the silver image is not to expect. This is what Ian is hinting at.

FujiLove · Feb 22, 2018

Does anyone know how XP2 prints when developed in B&W chemicals compared to it’s native C41?

Svenedin · Feb 22, 2018

FujiLove said:
Does anyone know how XP2 prints when developed in B&W chemicals compared to it’s native C41?

There is a long thread on it on here. A chap, Chris (Dr Moss) did a lot of experimentation.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-xp2-super-in-b-w-chemicals.145287/

FujiLove · Feb 22, 2018

Svenedin said:
There is a long thread on it on here. A chap, Chris (Dr Moss) did a lot of experimentation.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-xp2-super-in-b-w-chemicals.145287/

Thanks - I read through that thread a few days ago and the one thing they haven’t discussed is how it prints.

Svenedin · Feb 22, 2018

FujiLove said:
Thanks - I read through that thread a few days ago and the one thing they haven’t discussed is how it prints.

OK. I've never tried XP2 in B&W chemicals but I don't particularly like it for traditional printing when it has been processed C41. To be honest, I can't really see the point of XP2 in B&W chemicals when we already have very good black and white films to use. The only reason I would do it was if I somehow found myself with vast quantities of XP2 for free!

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 22, 2018

Ian Grant said:
If you are processing in B&W developer it's going to have the same stability as any other B&W film.

Ian

AgX said:
In C-41 processing typically couplers remain in the emulsion. These may cause problems with the formed dyes. A interaction with the silver image is not to expect. This is what Ian is hinting at.

This puts my concerns to rest. Thanks.

Old_Dick · Feb 23, 2018

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I've had some success developing Ilford XP2 Super ISO 400 film in Obsidian Aqua, a staining developer designed by Jay Defehr. Though XP2 Super is a film designed for C41 process, I prefer to develop it as traditional B&W film as I need not rely on commercial labs for developing the film and I can use the developer I've brewed at home. In both 135 and 120 formats, I've got negatives that have good contrast, fine grain at ISO 100, and nice tonality.

One concern I've now is about the colour couplers used in XP2 Super film. In C41 process the couplers would react with the developer and form a dye cloud around the silver grain that was exposed to light. When developed in B&W developers such as Obsidian Aqua I'm not sure what happens to these couplers. I suspect they remain in the film even after fixing and washing. Can the couplers cause any harm to the negative over a period of time?

Another concern I've is about the risk of fungus attack on XP2 Super negatives developed in B&W developers such as Obsidian Aqua. In C41 process the negatives are bathed in stabiliser which contains fungicide. As the negatives have no silver, the stabiliser bath is a must to protect them. On the other hand, my XP2 Super negatives have silver in them and I don't use a stabiliser. Is the silver in XP2 Super adequate to protect the negatives from fungus attack?

How is well is it working with Obsidian Aqua?

Nihil Abstat · Feb 23, 2018

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Thanks! After reading some old threads, I'm wondering if a bath in formalin+photoflo+water would solve both problems?

Why are you even doing this? It's designed as a C41 film.

Svenedin · Feb 23, 2018

Nihil Abstat said:
Why are you even doing this? It's designed as a C41 film.

Exactly my thoughts!

pentaxuser · Feb 23, 2018

Nihil Abstat said:
Why are you even doing this? It's designed as a C41 film.

I think the OP explained this in his first post. He finds the look of the negative he gets to be good and it is easier to develop at 20C rather than at 38C. If what you get is as Ian Grant says and he is pretty good on matters analogue then you end up with a silver B&W film that has a known longevity that is greater than we can yet be sure of with dye clouds.

So it is win-win as they say for the OP

By the way and just out of curiosity where is your location of Klmbs Ahia? I was intrigued by the location which I had never heard of and tried "Googling it" but got nowhere. Is it purely fictitious?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Nihil Abstat · Feb 23, 2018

pentaxuser said:
I think the OP explained this in his first post. He finds the look of the negative he gets to be good and it is easier to develop at 20C rather than at 38C. If what you get is as Ian Grant says and he is pretty good on matters analogue then you end up with a silver B&W film that has a known longevity that is greater than we can yet be sure of with dye clouds.

So it is win-win as they say for the OP

By the way and just out of curiosity where is your location of Klmbs Ahia? I was intrigued by the location which I had never heard of and tried "Googling it" but got nowhere. Is it purely fictitious?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Just use regular film and be done with it, I say. There is nothing to be gained by doing this at all.

Martin Rickards · Feb 23, 2018

Nihil Abstat said:
Just use regular film and be done with it, I say. There is nothing to be gained by doing this at all.

One of the advantages is the sensibility range of XP2. You can under or overexpose a lot and still end up with very printable negatives.

Nihil Abstat · Feb 23, 2018

Martin Rickards said:
One of the advantages is the sensibility range of XP2. You can under or overexpose a lot and still end up with very printable negatives.

That's not true, or perhaps true only if processed as intended in C41-type chemistry. He's not doing that!

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 23, 2018

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I've had some success developing Ilford XP2 Super ISO 400 film in Obsidian Aqua, a staining developer designed by Jay Defehr. Though XP2 Super is a film designed for C41 process, I prefer to develop it as traditional B&W film as I need not rely on commercial labs for developing the film and I can use the developer I've brewed at home. In both 135 and 120 formats, I've got negatives that have good contrast, fine grain at ISO 100, and nice tonality.

One concern I've now is about the colour couplers used in XP2 Super film. In C41 process the couplers would react with the developer and form a dye cloud around the silver grain that was exposed to light. When developed in B&W developers such as Obsidian Aqua I'm not sure what happens to these couplers. I suspect they remain in the film even after fixing and washing. Can the couplers cause any harm to the negative over a period of time?

Another concern I've is about the risk of fungus attack on XP2 Super negatives developed in B&W developers such as Obsidian Aqua. In C41 process the negatives are bathed in stabiliser which contains fungicide. As the negatives have no silver, the stabiliser bath is a must to protect them. On the other hand, my XP2 Super negatives have silver in them and I don't use a stabiliser. Is the silver in XP2 Super adequate to protect the negatives from fungus attack?

Maybe just store the negatives in a cool dry environment? Fungus love warm and humid environments.

pentaxuser · Feb 23, 2018

Nihil Abstat said:
That's not true, or perhaps true only if processed as intended in C41-type chemistry. He's not doing that!

So the film's exposure latitude is restricted by the traditional B&W chemical development process such that if C41 gives you latitude to expose at say anything from 100 to 800, using B&W chemicals restricts this latitude to what 200 to 400? Can you elaborate on how this happens? Thanks

pentaxuser

Nihil Abstat · Feb 23, 2018

pentaxuser said:
So the film's exposure latitude is restricted by the traditional B&W chemical development process such that if C41 gives you latitude to expose at say anything from 100 to 800, using B&W chemicals restricts this latitude to what 200 to 400? Can you elaborate on how this happens? Thanks

pentaxuser

The film is intended to be processed in C41. I don't believe that there is any significant difference in the B&W component of this film compared to other B&W 400-speed films, so there is no advantage whatsoever in doing this (using regular B&W chemistry). There may be some latitude gain simply by virtue of the fact that the final image consists of dye rather than elementary silver particles, due to the Callier effect being absent in the dye negative. Thus, there may be some gain in over-exposure latitude. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callier_effect

Martin Rickards · Feb 23, 2018

I would ask you to read the opening post in the thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-xp2-super-in-b-w-chemicals.145287/

Basically it would seem that film can be rated from ISO 100 to 1600

pentaxuser · Feb 23, 2018

Thanks for the reply. Can anyone else elaborate on why dye negatives give greater latitude gain than silver due to the absence of the Callier effect with dye negatives.

pentaxuser

Nihil Abstat · Feb 23, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for the reply. Can anyone else elaborate on why dye negatives give greater latitude gain than silver due to the absence of the Callier effect with dye negatives.

pentaxuser

I just did, but here is something more:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120810
"Like someone just already said...chromogenic film wins by far on latitude...i´ve used extensively xp2 and teh results are really WIDE...check one film under hard light conditions you´ll be able to get a pair or point on each extreme.
Also teh grain is very fine.."

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/182236-dumb-film-question-xp2-exposure-latitude/

removed account4 · Feb 23, 2018

maybe another reason the OP is processing it in b/w chemistry is because the OP doesn't want to deal with color processing ?
i have been processing c41 and e6 film in b/w chemistry to enlarge, scan or contact print, and i havne't had any problems at all ..
my oldest negatives are probably 10years old, processed in sumatranol and ansco130 .. why do i do it ?
cause i don't want to deal with color processing, or i don't want ot pay the large fee for processing 4x5 or 120 film via a lab ...

Archival Stability Ilford XP2 Super developed in B&W Chemistry

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