Arca Swiss - $5,000

[Darryl Roberts]

I'm highly considering the Arca Swiss F -metric C 4x5", just under $5,000. What attracts me:

• Gears, one hand adjustments
• 100mm front rise
• compact monorail
• excellent ground glass

Before spending this kind of money, I'd like to know anyone's experience with it and/or any comparable cheaper options.

Thank you.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

Regardless of price, what ideas are you photographing? For those ideas to be successfully captured and presented, what techniques and with what equipment do you need and is required? What is necessary and sufficient? Only you can answer that. Do you need 100mm of displacement? Will friction threaded/knobs vs geared/locks work as well. Can’t you buy quality fresnel lens for any LF gg? Monorails???? Hmmm are you referring to dia.? Or length? When you refer to “compact” ?
There is no question that everyone loves nice things and things that do a lot. But, will those things, make your art ? Or will those things improve your artistic practice? Can you make your art without those characteristics of the camera you stated? As far as price is concerned, only you can determine value. That is really subjective.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

Regardless of price, what ideas are you photographing? For those ideas to be successfully captured and presented, what techniques and with what equipment do you need and is required? What is necessary and sufficient? Only you can answer that. Do you need 100mm of displacement? Will friction threaded/knobs vs geared/locks work as well. Can’t you buy quality fresnel lens for any LF gg? Monorails???? Hmmm are you referring to dia.? Or length? When you refer to “compact” ?
There is no question that everyone loves nice things and things that do a lot. But, will those things, make your art ? Or will those things improve your artistic practice? Can you make your art without those characteristics of the camera you stated? As far as price is concerned, only you can determine value. That is really subjective.

Architecture, some tall buildings in Atlanta. I have a 90mm, 120mm, 150mm, 210mm, with great image circles. https://www.arca-shop.de/en/cameras/f-line/metric/34/f-metric-c-4x5?c=358

 

[wiltw]

In view of many fine used 4x5 cameras on the market at a bargain compared to oritinal MSRP, is there a rspecific eason for going with an Arca Swiss F? For example used Sinar P for only $500.

 

[36cm2]

The arca swiss compact line is a phenomenal tool. I have a well used un-geared version and it is wonderful. Extremely precise, a pleasure to use, incredibly well machined. Are there other, less expensive, less precise, less well manufactured tools that can produce similar results. Absolutely. The artist makes the image, and in some cases i’ve seen better work from people using homemade pinholes than some with amazing and very costly equipment. Does that mean you shouldn't buy the arca? No. If the price suits you for what is certainly a fine high-end tool, and you feel its specifications lend themselves to your work goals, then by all means go for it.

 

[36cm2]

And as for less costly options, its all about patience. But you have to decide if you’re willing to regularly search and wait maybe many months to find a similar camera on the used market. I did not pay MSRP for my arca when i bought it. And i would not have been able to justify the MSRP expense for my use.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

IMO, there are other quality brands out there, that cost less that will give you the movements you need at a fraction of the cost. But that’s me! IMO, your front and rear standard should have full movements. Shift, swing, tilt, rise/fall.with about 50% of your format. So for 100mm x 125mm you should ask for 50mm -60mm of displacement and I think 30 degrees of swing and tilt. But that’s me! Good luck

 

[greg zinselmeier]

If you have the money, buy it. But . . . I still believe that with 5k you can buy a lot of other things you might need too , but if you have 5k to spend on a camera, you probably have additional funds for those other things. Idk . . . Tough call.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

In view of many fine used 4x5 cameras on the market at a bargain compared to oritinal MSRP, is there a rspecific eason for going with an Arca Swiss F? For example used Sinar P for only $500.

The arca swiss compact line is a phenomenal tool. I have a well used un-geared version and it is wonderful. Extremely precise, a pleasure to use, incredibly well machined. Are there other, less expensive, less precise, less well manufactured tools that can produce similar results. Absolutely. The artist makes the image, and in some cases i’ve seen better work from people using homemade pinholes than some with amazing and very costly equipment. Does that mean you shouldn't buy the arca? No. If the price suits you for what is certainly a fine high-end tool, and you feel its specifications lend themselves to your work goals, then by all means go for it.

Thank you. Architectural photography, analog, is what I enjoy, not other fancies.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

IMO, there are other quality brands out there, that cost less that will give you the movements you need at a fraction of the cost. But that’s me! IMO, your front and rear standard should have full movements. Shift, swing, tilt, rise/fall.with about 50% of your format. So for 100mm x 125mm you should ask for 50mm -60mm of displacement and I think 30 degrees of swing and tilt. But that’s me! Good luck

I did consider a Chamonix.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

If you have the money, buy it. But . . . I still believe that with 5k you can buy a lot of other things you might need too , but if you have 5k to spend on a camera, you probably have additional funds for those other things. Idk . . . Tough call.

Yup, tough.

 

[CreationBear]

In the spirit of "in for a penny, in for a pound," you might do some research on the A/S "Orbix" option before "settling" for a stock F-line. Otherwise, just to establish an apples-to-apples comparison, the Toyo VX125 and Linhof TK are two cameras often compared to the F-line, though of course all have trade-offs that may or may not be important to you.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

In the spirit of "in for a penny, in for a pound," you might do some research on the A/S "Orbix" option before "settling" for a stock F-line. Otherwise, just to establish an apples-to-apples comparison, the Toyo VX125 and Linhof TK are two cameras often compared to the F-line, though of course all have trade-offs that may or may not be important to you.

Thank you very much

 

[DREW WILEY]

If you need a full-featured monorail camera, there are plenty of used Sinars around for far less price. Way more of them were made.

 

[dodphotography]

It’s absolutely worth the money if you have the income to justify its cost.

AS is one of those brands a lot of people shit on out of some form of jealousy. It’s a brand that doesn’t get much written about because primarily people who own them are working pros who don’t use photo forums / people on forums can’t afford them... hence they aren’t “worth it”.

 

[mshchem]

Thank you. Architectural photography, analog, is what I enjoy, not other fancies.

Absolutely, if you've done your research and this is what you want, get it. New is good, New is no surprises. 4x5 is relatively economical, has the most film choices. Buy some choice used film holders, and a Jobo CPE3, I've got the big Expert tanks. I still like the 2509n reels. 4x5 makes everything more feasible.
Put those nice lenses to work.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

It’s absolutely worth the money if you have the income to justify its cost.

AS is one of those brands a lot of people shit on out of some form of jealousy. It’s a brand that doesn’t get much written about because primarily people who own them are working pros who don’t use photo forums / people on forums can’t afford them... hence they aren’t “worth it”.

Thank you very much.

 

[mshchem]

Thank you very much.

I started looking around the Arca shop. My such nice things. Lots of goodies. I've got a Really Right Stuff ball head and "Arca Swiss" compatible plates. I might need to look closer.

 

[mshchem]

It’s absolutely worth the money if you have the income to justify its cost.

AS is one of those brands a lot of people shit on out of some form of jealousy. It’s a brand that doesn’t get much written about because primarily people who own them are working pros who don’t use photo forums / people on forums can’t afford them... hence they aren’t “worth it”.

I like the working pros who don't waste time on forums . There's a lot of truth in that.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

Absolutely, if you've done your research and this is what you want, get it. New is good, New is no surprises. 4x5 is relatively economical, has the most film choices. Buy some choice used film holders, and a Jobo CPE3, I've got the big Expert tanks. I still like the 2509n reels. 4x5 makes everything more feasible.
Put those nice lenses to work.

Thank you for your insight.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ball heads are the root of all evil when it comes to view camera stability. They might be acceptable with high speed flash work. Basic torque vectors physics. And if you are a studio type, look at Sinar X 4X5's. Basically the same thing as the geared P series but without as much engraving. These can be found barely used at good pricing; and Sinar offered a far bigger selection of components than Arca.

All the monorail brands that have been mentioned so far on this thread are desirable; but you also have to think about repairability and availability of components if you need to expand your system. And that's why everyone knows that what "working studio pros" predominantly used for decades was the Sinar system. Nothing has really changed in that respect; they've just added digital backs for sake of production speed. But I've used various configurations of Sinar in the field for the past forty years, and have even backpacked well over 10,000 miles in steep terrain with them, just not the geared ones - those components stay indoors where they belong!

But I don't understand your need for gear control plus compactness. The whole concept of monorails is that you can easily interchange rail lengths and bellow styles. If compactness is needed for field use or travel, fine gears are susceptible to grit and dust. Maybe not if you're trying to specialize in architectural photography. But desert wind can play havoc with fine-meshed gear trains. Focus track gears are a little easier to maintain. What types of photography are you interested in?

In terms of the amount of front rise you demand, that's not an uncommon amount for monorails systems; but it is a heck of a task for many 4X5 lenses to take advantage of it. You'd need some awfully big image circles. Beginners often get too hung up on mere marketing features. Quality of build is worth investing in. But things like geared controls are an amenity that won't save you any time at all except in certain volume studio setups like tabletop catalog and food photography. Once a person gets accustomed to their gear, all of that can be done ordinarily just as fast. A sort of halfway option in that respect would be the Toyo VX; but they're not common and use an oversized lensboard.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

Ball heads are the root of all evil when it comes to view camera stability. They might be acceptable with high speed flash work. Basic torque vectors physics. And if you are a studio type, look at Sinar X 4X5's. Basically the same thing as the geared P series but without as much engraving. These can be found barely used at good pricing; and Sinar offered a far bigger selection of components than Arca.

All the monorail brands that have been mentioned so far on this thread are desirable; but you also have to think about repairability and availability of components if you need to expand your system. And that's why everyone knows that what "working studio pros" predominantly used for decades was the Sinar system. Nothing has really changed in that respect; they've just added digital backs for sake of production speed. But I've used various configurations of Sinar in the field for the past forty years, and have even backpacked well over 10,000 miles in steep terrain with them, just not the geared ones - those components stay indoors where they belong!

But I don't understand your need for gear control plus compactness. The whole concept of monorails is that you can easily interchange rail lengths and bellow styles. If compactness is needed for field use or travel, fine gears are susceptible to grit and dust. Maybe not if you're trying to specialize in architectural photography. But desert wind can play havoc with fine-meshed gear trains. Focus track gears are a little easier to maintain. What types of photography are you interested in?

In terms of the amount of front rise you demand, that's not an uncommon amount for monorails systems; but it is a heck of a task for many 4X5 lenses to take advantage of it. You'd need some awfully big image circles. Beginners often get too hung up on mere marketing features. Quality of build is worth investing in. But things like geared controls are an amenity that won't save you any time at all except in certain volume studio setups like tabletop catalog and food photography. Once a person gets accustomed to their gear, all of that can be done ordinarily just as fast. A sort of halfway option in that respect would be the Toyo VX; but they're not common and use an oversized lensboard.

Thank you, today I started reconsidering gears because last night I used my Norma with ease, shooting tabletop. My goal is packability, which for me the Norma isn't. Architecture is my desire.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The Norma is my favorite field camera. But now in my 70's, I will admit that for airline travel and long mountain backpacking trips, I now use a lightweight Ebony folder instead. Arcas are very well liked by certain outdoor photographers, but seem way overpriced compared to what Sinar offers in even better-featured fashion, at least nowadays, since clean used Sinar gear is abundant. I still have my Sinar F2, which is somewhat lighter and more compact than a Norma, and was easy to transport to projects. I stopped doing commercial architectural shoots sometime ago, back when my former clients starting renting digital MF gear. Once digital took over, everybody demanded the results almost yesterday, and clients wanted to look over your shoulder like vultures and pontificate on what they saw on the screen. I have no patience that kind of annoyance, and stood out from the crowd by charging per print, not per job. They sought me out for both my reputation as a printmaker, and for my expertise in architectural color consultation. Now I still take opportunistic shots of interesting buildings etc, but for personal interest, for sake of both color and black-and-white darkroom printing.

The Arca has fine enough gearing for modern digi backs, but as you no doubt know, those backs are really med format at best in terms of capture area, and require shorter fussier lenses than 4x5. A friend of mine still uses his Sinar P's for studio work, now with digi backs, and has no problem with fine focusing - and he's the most successful studio photographer I've even known in terms of sheer income. The best known career architectural photographer here in northern Calif. used the Toyo VX ever since its inception, but switched over to an Arca MF digital camera due to need-it-now scheduling, and regretted it - not due to the excellent gear itself, but due to the micromanagement vulture mentality of the clients, like I just described. Good luck with your choices!

 

[DREW WILEY]

All Sinar 4x5 bellows are interchangeable. The original tapered Norma bellows is the best for general use, anywhere from less than 120 mm to easily 450 mm lenses without an intermediate support. But it was probably expensive to make, so they switched to the box-style bellows. I once substituted the Horseman long bellows for long lens work, itself a box bellows, but it won't significantly sag even with over 600mm extension. Then Sinar had two styles of bag bellows for sake of wide and very wide angle lenses. These can all be interchanged over the entire series of Sinar 4X5's, just like most of the other components. The later Sinar groundglass is much brighter than the early Norma ones, which was actually a frosted coating. I find the Arca system ingenious, but not sufficiently stiff for the kind of windy conditions I often encounter. I also strongly prefer the circular Sinar rail. Note that I never use any kind of tripod head for large format use. That custom not only saves weight, but results in a much more stable system. My father began his career as a surveyor for big federal projects prior to WWII, and later trained me with that same old transit, where one learns to precisely level everything via legs only. Now its spontaneous for me. Very few buildings are truly level or plumb anyway, and the film never sits precisely square in the holder; all that has to be trued during printing regardless. But the circular Sinar rail does make it easy to adjust sideways tilt in the rail clamp itself (I prefer the old Norma clamp for its lower center of gravity). It's that whole mix and match capability which makes the system so practical. But I've heard a lot of issues regarding mixing old vs new Arca components, if they can even be found.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

I considered the VX at one point but decided against it. Also, at the time, one well known, highly experienced photographer told me he had used a VX for a time but after two gear stripping repairs he went back to his Norma.

One of my favourite things about the Norma (I don't own one though) is the wide angle/bag bellows allows for enough extension so that for people who don't regularly shoot too much longer than "normal" focal lengths it can basically stay on the camera most of the time. For me that would be great since it is annoying to have to switch bellows just to go from a short lens to a 150 or 180.

Lol, I saw a Nico Youtube video and the gears clearly were stripped. I'm looking hard at Chamonix's options too. Thank you VERY much for the awesome insight.