APX Glass Plates

miha · Oct 23, 2024

They can still be purchased new, made by Agfa (with the rhombus logo). This makes me wonder if the original Agfa APX 100 emulsion is still in production. I also wonder who coats glass plates and what they are used for.

_T_ · Oct 23, 2024

A lot of people shoot glass plates for various reasons. There’s been a little bit of a resurgence of people shooting glass plates lately just because it’s cool and they want to try it but there are some reasons that you might want to choose a glass plate over film like compatibility with certain systems and flatness.

But I think the emulsion has been updated over time so it might not be exactly the same as whatever you mean by the original emulsion.

I haven’t been paying close attention lately so I could be wrong but I would guess that agfa coats it themselves, unless they stopped coating and I didn’t hear about it.

Henning Serger · Oct 23, 2024

miha said:
I also wonder who coats glass plates and what they are used for.

Hello Miha,

until about 10-15 years ago their main use was in the car industry: AFAIK extremely fine structures were exposed on it, and with the help of these roboters were programmed. Glass was used because it is more plane and stable compared to the flexible film.
I don't know whether it is still used for that industrial purpose.

Best regards,
Henning

miha · Oct 23, 2024

_T_ said:
But I think the emulsion has been updated over time so it might not be exactly the same as whatever you mean by the original emulsion.

Can you please elaborate on the update part? Of course, by 'original' I meant the emulsion we know from Leverkusen (Agfapan APX 100) available until 2005, and some years after that distributed my MACO.

miha · Oct 23, 2024

Hello Henning, thanks. What about the current one and my question on the emulsion that goes on these plates?

Henning Serger · Oct 23, 2024

miha said:
Hello Henning, thanks. What about the current one and my question on the emulsion that goes on these plates?

Miha, I have never used these glass plates by myself. And I also don't know anyone else personally who have used it. Therefore unfortunately I cannot tell you whether that emulsion on the plates has been 100% identical to the original Leverkusen APX 100 emulsion, or whether it has been modified. I assume at least some (minor) differences to adapt it to the different basis.
I do know that the Agfa APX emulsions were technologically significantly different to those of other manufacturers and more difficult to produce. And that emulsion chemists today will not go in that direction anymore.

Best regards,
Henning

miha · Oct 23, 2024

Henning Serger said:
I do know that the Agfa APX emulsions were technologically significantly different to those of other manufacturers and more difficult to produce. And that emulsion chemists today will not go in that direction anymore.

Best regards,
Henning

You have my full attention now. Tell us more, please.

cliveh · Oct 23, 2024

Many years ago, I used glass plates and they have wonderful dimensional stability, as they are dead flat. But used in the field they weigh a ton to carry around.

miha · Oct 23, 2024

cliveh said:
Many years ago, I used glass plates and they have wonderful dimensional stability, as they are dead flat. But used in the field they weigh a ton to carry around.

A Leica man shooting glass plates must have been quite an experience and a completely different mindset.

_T_ · Oct 23, 2024

Agfa and other companies that coat emulsions will generally continue to develop the technology used in a given emulsion for whatever reason, cost reduction, performance improvements in some regard. And they may not necessarily inform the public when updates to the emulsion have been made.

If the emulsion is being marketed under the same name I imagine it should be using much of the same technology and thus be very similar to the film you remember. But there have likely been some improvements over the years and also it might be formulated differently for the purposes of coating on glass as opposed to film.

I would guess it would be pretty similar to what you remember though or they would want to give it a new name for marketing whatever the improvements are.

miha · Oct 23, 2024

Ok, sure, this is my reasoning as well. It doesn't answer my initial question, though.

Henning Serger · Oct 23, 2024

miha said:
You have my full attention now. Tell us more, please.

Miha, when you produce an emulsion quite a lot can go wrong. It is not an easy task. And if something is going wrong and not up to the needed specifications, it costs a lot of money. Therefore film manufacturers do all they can to use approaches which reduce the risk of failures.
The old Agfa BW emulsion technology was more difficult to make, had more risks in the production process.

Another reason: APX 25 and APX 100 have been very good compared to competitor products like PanF(+), Panatomic X, ORWO NP15 and FP4(+), Plus-X, Fomapan 100.
APX 25 even had the best detail rendition (finest grain, highest resolution) in its class.
But APX 400 was weaker than its competition Tri-X, HP5+ and Neopan 400. And as ISO 400/27° films are today the film class with the highest demand, that is another reason why emulsion chemists are not using the old Agfa BW emulsion technology anymore.

Best regards,
Henning

_T_ · Oct 23, 2024

Sorry I misunderstood your question. Yes it appears to be in production. But I can only find rolls of 135 and these plates you posted. I didn’t look very hard though

Don_ih · Oct 23, 2024

miha said:
It doesn't answer my initial question,

Perhaps you should look up the developing instructions for the plates and compare it to the film? That might offer insight. The plates are too expensive to just buy out of curiosity.

miha · Oct 23, 2024

_T_ said:
Sorry I misunderstood your question. Yes it appears to be in production. But I can only find rolls of 135 and these plates you posted. I didn’t look very hard though

No problem. Rolls? What kind of 135 rolls did you find?

miha · Oct 23, 2024

Don_ih said:
Perhaps you should look up the developing instructions for the plates and compare it to the film? That might offer insight. The plates are too expensive to just buy out of curiosity.

Indeed. But I have no means to do so.

miha · Oct 23, 2024

Henning Serger said:
The old Agfa BW emulsion technology was more difficult to make, had more risks in the production process.

This is the part I'm interested in.

Henning Serger said:
But APX 400 was weaker

Correct. But the tonality was amazing.

Henning Serger said:
And as ISO 400/27° films are today the film class with the highest demand,

So there is room for another film. Adox came out with a beta version many years ago.

Don_ih · Oct 23, 2024

miha said:
Indeed. But I have no means to do so.

Well, the data sheet provided by macodirect on the glass plate sales page is from 2003 and doesn't mention glass. And there appears to be no information anywhere else. But there's probably some information in the box.

miha · Oct 23, 2024

My point exactly. I don't have the box in hand.

koraks · Oct 24, 2024

_T_ said:
A lot of people shoot glass plates for various reasons.

Not "a lot", I think. I've yet to encounter a single person using these - not counting wet plate photographers who pour their own plates, or the (very) small crowd that shoots very simple emulsions on dry plates for a 'period correct' look.

I suspect that virtually the only area in which glass plates are still used is in holography. And perhaps some niche areas within physics/optics research. See e.g. here: https://www.geola.com/product-category/for-holography/

JPD · Oct 24, 2024

Why not contact Agfa and ask them directly about the glass plates? I doubt that there is much secrecy about them since there isn't any competition regarding "pro" glass plates in 2024.

I have been a little tempted, but glass is fragile, and I still have a couple of APX 100 rolls frozen and one waiting to be developed.

Henning Serger · Oct 24, 2024

miha said:
So there is room for another film.

For what kind of film, Miha? What are you missing in the ISO 400/27° BW film class?
The current supply and variety is huge:
4 different films from Harman technology: Delta 400, XP2 Super 400, HP5+, Kentmere 400.
2 different film from Foma: Fomapan 400, Foma Orto 400.
2 different films from Kodak: TMY-2, Tri-X
1 film from Bergger: Pancro 400
1 film from FilmoTec: P400

Which photographic project cannot realized by you because of a specific lacking ISO 400/27° BW film?

miha said:
Adox came out with a beta version many years ago.

I know, I had tested it. ADOX had good reasons for not continuing that route. In my opinion the right decision.
If ADOX introduces a new BW ISO 400/27° film in the future, it will be different.

Best regards,
Henning

miha · Oct 24, 2024

Henning Serger said:
For what kind of film, Miha? What are you missing in the ISO 400/27° BW film class?

If it were up to me, I’d say I miss APX 400's tonality.

Henning Serger said:
The current supply and variety is huge:
4 different films from Harman technology: Delta 400, XP2 Super 400, HP5+, Kentmere 400.
2 different film from Foma: Fomapan 400, Foma Orto 400.
2 different films from Kodak: TMY-2, Tri-X
1 film from Bergger: Pancro 400
1 film from FilmoTec: P400

Harman's films are all good, and there is Ilford Pan 400 you forgot to mention.
Fomapan is a substandard film (unlike FP100 and 200).
Pancro is obsolesing, isn't it?
Kodak's offering is excellent but too expensive!
What is P400, their cine film, coated by Inovis?

Henning Serger said:
Which photographic project cannot realized by you because of a specific lacking ISO 400/27° BW film?

Luckily, my hobby has no pending projects.

Anyway, if I were given a lifetime supply of one type of film for free, I would choose Agfa APX 400, but it would have to come in 135, 120, and sheet formats.

_T_ · Oct 24, 2024

koraks said:
Not "a lot", I think. I've yet to encounter a single person using these - not counting wet plate photographers who pour their own plates, or the (very) small crowd that shoots very simple emulsions on dry plates for a 'period correct' look.

I guess I meant a lot more than one would expect. The expectation being that nobody shoots glass plates.

Don_ih · Oct 24, 2024

_T_ said:
I guess I meant a lot more than one would expect. The expectation being that nobody shoots glass plates.

For what it's worth, I assumed you meant "Of the people who shoot glass plates" a lot shoot them for a particular reason (not just to be cool or whatever). It's actually pretty obvious that not a lot of people shoot glass plates.

APX Glass Plates

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