APUG book

TheFlyingCamera

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Even with a small steering committee, the original APUG book idea collapsed under the weight of failed consensus. There were a lot of conversations that happened via PM or in a closed subforum that are not public and should not be public, but the gist was that ultimately there were too many opportunities for bruised egos within the APUG community, on topics ranging from who was or was not the editor/curator to whose work was or was not included. Yes there was much concern about the physical medium being used (offset vs POD), but that was a surmountable obstacle. I suspect in the end we would have gone POD because there was just too much uncertainty over order quantities and money handling. The bigger issue was the question of images being submitted. Did we go with a democratic approach and let anyone who submitted an image in the book, or did we have an editor/curator select from submissions or even browse the APUG galleries and select by invitation only? If we went with the democratic approach, there would be some folks whose work we would want to see in the book refuse to participate because their work might be shown next to a crudely composed, poorly focused and printed snapshot of aunt Sally's kitten in a basket of yarn, and if we went the curated route, there would be folks submitting a crudely composed, poorly focused and printed snapshot of aunt Sally's kitten in a basket of yarn who would be all torqued up over the fact that they were not included.

Please note the example image referred to is a generic example exaggerated for rhetorical effect and is not intended to impugn or suggest the work of any actual APUG member.
 

Ian Grant

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Actually the original book project was ready to launch but we were asked to wait so that it could be announced alongside another APUG event. The event never happened and by then the delays meant the book project had lost all momentum.

Ian
 

pdeeh

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TheFlyingCamera said:
there were too many opportunities for bruised egos within the APUG community
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Having one's ego bruised can be quite helpful in keeping a sense of proportion about oneself.

There would be nothing, presumably, to stop one or two energetic folk simply starting a book project, setting their own rules and inviting others to contribute, and then just getting on and doing it. Those who want to contribute can do so, and those whose egos are too fragile to withstand the process can keep away.

It doesn't have to be a huge project, there could be more than one, and it (or they) doesn't have to be APUG-wide or accommodate every "big I am" who shouts that they don't approve in some way.

Nothing will happen if nobody does something, and keeping it as simple and relatively small provides a good chance of getting it going
 

Sean

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One solution might be to look at it from the perspective of analog materials and what they are capable of. A book that showcases work covering the majority of traditional methods. Everything from wet plate to color cross-processing. From pinhole, to minox to 20x24. A "look at the amazing diversity and potential of traditional methods" approach. We come up with those categories and take submissions for each. We end up with a great collection of work but also a book that touts the power and diversity of the medium. Or a series of books, "The Chemistry" "The Print" "The Gear". Just brainstorming
 
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cliveh

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I would like to think it could be a printed version rather than something like a blurb version and although it would be difficult to get the first version out there, it would be a start and future APUG publications could build on the initial model. It could be done in stages and for starters people could suggest a series of questions about such a publication, giving several choices of answer and allowing APUGers to vote within a given time frame and let the consensus rule. I don’t have the computer skills to post one of those voting charts, but am sure many others do. Sean made some very good points and I think such a publication would be unique. I wouldn’t mind paying a contribution to this; regardless of whether I had an image included and would almost certainly buy a copy.
 

polyglot

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Whoever put up that survey monkey thing, can you please link to the results or send them to me? I'd be interested to know what was asked and what people thought. I'd be interested in seeing where the previous book committee got to in their thinking.

I honestly think I'm big enough and ugly enough to organize a book in the face of egos and primadonnas, my hesitation is whether I have the time (child #2 is now 7 weeks old).
 

ntenny

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polyglot said:
I honestly think I'm big enough and ugly enough to organize a book in the face of egos and primadonnas, my hesitation is whether I have the time (child #2 is now 7 weeks old).
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Hey, congratulations! It's hard for me to imagine taking on a big "extracurricular" project with an infant in the house, but you certainly have my respect for being willing to consider it.

I didn't pay much mind to the last round of discussions, but I think it's worth noting that no one could stop you from offering to coordinate a book of photos by those interested in participating---as you said, like it or lump it. Many of the complexities seem to come with the official identity of APUG. People have, understandably, a different reaction to the concept of "the APUG book" than to "the Polyglot Collection book".

History suggests, though, that all attempts to coordinate things on the internet devolve into bad blood and Godwin's Law.

-NT
 

removed account4

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polyglot, congratulations !
i hope you are getting a little more sleep every day

an apug book would be great, POD published like on blurb or whatrever ..
the problem last time was that there was a "guest curator" who people thought
would have a certain bias about what would make "the final cut" ( its in the olde-thread)
and then the originator of the project's real-life took over so he became scarce, and the steering committee lost steam ...
a book with 200 or more photographs ends up being costly, even at blurp ...
and if it is going to be printed in china / not POD, a large amount has to be printed, and someone has to
run interference / be the point person to review mock-ups &c ...

it would be great to have a book, but sometimes 2many chefs spoil the soup, or not enough ingredients make a bland soup or
after the soup is made and it is known to be delicious, no one buy it because it is 57$ a cup ( even thought they provided delicious ingredients! ) ..

regarding blurb ..
from what i remember reading from frank petronio eloquent posts, he has been an avid blurb-book-maker/user, the sweet spot is 80 pages ...
maybe if there are lots of submissions the apug book, they can be divided up into volumes containing 80-images each so the cost won't be excessive, or the book won't be too thin ..

i would probably buy one, but these days, cost is a major-factor for me ... so a book that has 200 images filled with apuggers' nudes, landscapes, topographics, indexicals, portraits,
streets, eroticnudes, abstracts, alt process &al ...at 300$ a pop, it would be beyond my budget ...

john
 

Eric Rose

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jnanian I like your idea of smaller books. May I suggest divided up by topic. Nudes, landscape, street etc. That way a person would have an opportunity to buy only what interests him/her.

For selection what we could do is allow each person who wants to participate to submit three photos in each category they want to publish in. These would be put on a website where we can vote. Only paid up members would be able to vote (extra revenue for Sean) and you would not be able to vote for your own photos. Software eliminates the possibility of someone voting multiple times for the same photograph.

Limit each "book" to 80 images so the top 80 vote getters would be published. Eliminates curator bias if there ever was any.

Sounds pretty quick and easy to me at least. Also very democratic.
 

pdeeh

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Not very democratic for those who aren't subscribers of course ... who I think constitute the vast majority of the user base ...
 
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cliveh

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Think of the APUG book like making a bromoil for the first time, the first edition may not be perfect but it is a starting point to build on. If you did one every year, in 5 years you would be cooking on gas.
 

mooseontheloose

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John, Eric,

I like the idea of a collection (which is what we were going for at the time, due it being the 10th anniversary of APUG) but also the idea of smaller books with one particular focus as well. However, even so, it would probably be best to start with one, and if that works, do others. That being said, I may not shoot (or be overly interested in) macros or nudes or landscapes or whatever, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate good work from others who do. The actual content and the way the photograph is printed means more to me than whatever category it may fit in.

Also, just a reminder that 80 images will not be an 80-page book. With front and end pages, it would be closer to a 100-page book (at least), with each and every image facing one another (no white pages or bleeds across pages). If people preferred a book that had a white page across from each image, that would cut the number of images in half (at least). The book that filmwasters did (see Mike's link above) is a good example. 72 images in a 174-page book. For $114 plus shipping.
 

Ken Nadvornick

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cliveh said:
...you would be cooking on gas.
Click to expand...

Off-topic Phraseology Award. I haven't heard this wonderful expression in years and years.

Nicely done...



Ken
 

StoneNYC

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pdeeh said:
Not very democratic for those who aren't subscribers of course ... who I think constitute the vast majority of the user base ...
Click to expand...

?Why should non subscribers be even considered? If you can't spend $25 a year on the site how can you be expected to come up with print proofs to send in for submissions?
 

removed account4

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stone

a lot of people who are members and not subscribers don't have the $$ for a subscription
they do for other things, necessities, but not for a subscription. and the reasons why people don't subscribe
isn't the topic of this thread ... and pdeeh has a valid point ... often times one don't need to be a subscriber to make a
contribution to this site.
 
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cliveh

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If you were asked to contribute 20 US dollars to get this off the ground, how many members would donate?
 

StoneNYC

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Does profit from the book end up going back into APUG what is the profit go to those who are contributing? If the profit goes directly to APUG then it's not such a big deal, but if people are profiting off of the sale of the book, and yet aren't describing and sending money toward the site, why should they benefit from having access to the people and the site and organizing the book if they're not also helping to support it. I just don't think that's fair, It makes sense to be a subscriber only option just like selling something on the classifieds threat area which is subscriber only I believe.
 
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cliveh

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Stone, such a venture is not likely to make any profit for several years.
 

TheFlyingCamera

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And THAT was one of the obstacles we ran into for the book the last time. Nobody wanted to pay that kind of money for an APUG-sourced book. They were looking for a quadtone offset printed book with 100+ pages for $40. Ain't gonna happen no way no how. the only reason you see books from publishers with those kinds of specs are that A: the publisher is able to make it up on volume (doing a multi-thousand copy run), and/or B: they're doing it as a loss-leader.
 

TheFlyingCamera

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From past experience, we would be unable to sell the books for any kind of margin. They'd have to be produced and sold at cost, which could be managed if they were POD books. Not going to happen if it is offset printed.
 

Eric Rose

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My suggestions were just that, suggestions. It makes no difference to me if the book is 10 pages or 100 pages or whether non-subscribers are allowed to contribute or not. It was just a beginning that can be adjusted to make it a good fit for those that want to participate. People are so quick to look for problems but not so quick to step up with a viable solution. That is why nothing has happened.
 

polyglot

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jnanian said:
polyglot, congratulations !
i hope you are getting a little more sleep every day
Click to expand...

Sleep is not too bad. He's a very chilled little man.

Spare time though? Pretty thin on the ground. I can spare a couple hours each evening sitting in front of a computer to do the compilation but would have to depend on people like MAS (who I haven't heard back from my PM to him) for introduction to printers.


A 100-pager 8x10" from blurb is $40-$50 each in a 50-book print batch, more if you buy individually. Plus postage. I think that's kind of the sweet spot for POD: probably 90 images and therefore sales to at least 90 people. Multiple volumes are reasonable if we're doing POD because it doesn't really matter if people buy only the volume that contains their image. The drawback though is that you get less book for your money buying smaller books; I would rather spend $80 on a 200pp than $50 on a 100pp.

If we can get 200 photos submitted and therefore 200 people to commit (like, actually commit with their credit cards to kickstarter) to spending $80 each, then I suspect that that's enough to pay for an offset run. Don't forget that with KS, you can expect some non-APUG people to see the campaign and also buy a book; the guides to publishing on KS I've read indicate that you might expect to see 20% of the sales come from the KS community and 80% from one's own (APUG) community. The other thing is that on KS it's possible to offer a cheaper PDF of the book, e.g. for $15, which gets more cash in the door without costing anything except a risk of cannibalizing dead-tree sales.

Splitting a book into volumes for an offset run is silly though because it probably halves the quantity of each volume sold, and it's quantity we need for that to work.

I'm going to have a play with Scribus this weekend to see what level of pain is involved in assembling a book without the crappy online tools that the cheap vendors provide. I've been pondering doing a small book of my own (urbex & IR, mostly) and if I can get a successful print out of blurb using Scribus, then I'll have a better idea of whether it's feasible for me to think about compiling the APUG book.
 
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MattKing

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Could you do a POD "teaser" and use a digital version of it to support a kickstarter campaign for something larger and of higher quality?
 
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