Appraisal Help: 90mm f8 Super Angulon

jasonjoo · Jun 6, 2008

Hello everyone,

So with the Chamonix 45N-1 on order, I've been looking online for some lenses and other items such as lens boards and film holders.

I found this (link) lens on eBay and was wondering if the price was right. Also, from the images, I see some sort of "sparkle" in the front element. I'm not sure if these are bubbles or something similar embedded in the lens or if it's some kind of material behind the lens that is "sparkling."

Any guesses?

As far as lens choice is concerned, I am considering to add a Shen Hao 6x17 back, so I am interested in lenses with a large image circle. A post from David A. Goldfarb said this lens should work. David, if you're reading this, do you have any more experience with this particular lens and 6x17 backs? From your previous post (there was a url link here which no longer exists) I believe you were JUST getting acquainted with such backs yourself.

Thanks for your help,

Jason

Edit: Took a quick look through KEH and there seems to be many different kinds of "Super Angulons" and they vary in price greatly!

Edit: After taking a more detailed look at the ebay link, I think I might pass on this particular lens. I'm not sure how often I'll be using a faster shutter speed than 1/120 with a LF camera, but I'd like to have a shutter that is capable of using faster shutter speeds (just in case?).

Kino · Jun 6, 2008

That "sparkle" is "Schneideritis"; its common with Schneider lenses; not supposed to have a detrimental effect on the imaging, or so I hear.

As a general rule, if you shoot in a classic mode with LF lenses, you don't need the higher speeds, but it depends on what you are doing.

Also, I don't quite think you are ready for the depth of field issues in LF with fast lenses and high shutter speeds, but I had to learn that myself so... have at it.

Paul Cocklin · Jun 6, 2008

I've got a 90mm super angulon f8 for sale at the large format forum. If you're interested, pm me here and I'll send you the details. It's a great lens, super sharp, and mine is in a modern, black-ringed copal 0 shutter, so 1/500th max shutter speed. I've moved out of 4x5 and into 8x10, so I can't use it anymore.

I can't remember the exact image circle, but stopped down to f22 it should cover 5x7, and I know I've never run out of coverage even with extreme movements when I shot it on 4x5.

Paul

Paul Cocklin · Jun 6, 2008

oh, and mine is serial number 14 million something, so much newer than the ebay listing you linked to. $425 shipping included.

Even if you don't get mine, I gotta say that this is a superb lens. Razor sharp and I never had a problem with the focusing, even though it is f8 aperture. I almost wish I hadn't gotten rid of my 4x5 so I could keep using it. It really is a wonderful lens.

Ole · Jun 6, 2008

There are a couple of things I don't like about the one on ebay:

1) The shutter is not original. There is no guarantee that the spacing is correct, and with wide-angle lenses the spacing is very critical. Thet lens should be in a compur.

2) That seller has chosen a good name - notice the "$" at the end of the name. The price is all right, but not in an unoriginal shutter.

I wouldn't mind about the "Schneideritis", or the slow shutter. I tend to use my 90/8 on 5x7" film, at f:45-ish...

jasonjoo · Jun 6, 2008

This may sound ridiculous, but I'm sure I'll use the Chamonix handheld once in a blue moon (this camera is incredibly light!) and the higher shutter speeds would be nice. Other than that, I think a higher shutter speed would be nice... just in case

Paul, I may take you up on that offer! I'm really just beginning with this kind of stuff, so try not to take advantage of me (kidding of course!). I'll send you a PM!

Thanks for "appraisal" Ole! It was very helpful. You mention that the lens should be in a Compur shutter. Is this the case for all 90mm f8 Super Angulons? Or is it based on the particular serial number of each lens? For example, Paul has offered me his Super Angulon in a Copal 0 shutter (which I've read is a good shutter and quite prevalent?). Will this be OK?

Thanks for the quick responses everyone! Very helpful!

Jason

Edit: Also, what are some things that I should take into consideration when looking for a lens? Back in my d*gital days, I would ask people for sample images taken with the lens and of course images of the lens itself. From my limited knowledge, I'm guessing I will need to know if the shutter speeds are working properly, make sure the aperture dials into the correct diameter, check to see if the front threads are intact... What else? How would one "show" me that the lens is properly calibrated and performing as it should (perhaps scans of prints? negatives?).

Ole · Jun 6, 2008

The Compur shutters were replaced with Copal shutters around Schneider serial no. 12 500 000, I think. Before that, Schneider used only Compur (and Compound, for the larger sizes) shutters. I belive Schneider were part-owners of Compur-Werke from some time before WWII...

jasonjoo · Jun 6, 2008

Cool, thanks Ole!

Also, from my previously asked question, are there a lot of different models of the 90mm Super Angulon? I was looking on KEH and there seemed to be different versions at varying prices.

Jason

Ole · Jun 6, 2008

There was the 90/8 SA in 00 shutter, the 90/8 SA in 0 shutter, the 90/8 SA MC (like the one Paul is selling - it's multicoated unlike the older one) in Compur or Copal 0 shutter, the 90/5.6 SA, the 90/6.8 SA "Classic", the 90/5.6 SA XL, and...

jasonjoo · Jun 6, 2008

Yikes, there are a LOT of different models!

I found a website (camerareview.com) that compares different lenses. I've been comparing the 90 f8 SA MC with a Rodenstock 90 f6.8 Grandagon and the Grandagon does seem very enticing! I'm not sure how much brighter the f6.8 will be for focusing, but the Grandagon also has a slightly larger image circle (221 compared to the 90 SA's 216). Will either the aperture or image circle make a noticeable difference?

There is a Grandagon on ebay for $655 + shipping, but the description says it has been private labeled for Sinar as a Sinaron W. I'm guessing both the Sinaron and Rodenstock in this case are the same. Does it matter how the lens has been labeled then? Here's a

This is quite a bit more money than Paul's lens. I'm really leaning towards the 90 f8 SA right now, but if the wider aperture and larger image circle will make a difference, I may spring for the Grandagon.

Thanks again Ole for being so patient and helpful!

Jason

Ole · Jun 7, 2008

I don't believe the difference in image circle will make any difference at all - unless you're shooting 5x7". And even then I find that the 90/8 SA covers quite well, and mine is an old one in the dreaded 00 shutter.

Wide-angle lenses look "dark" on the GG almost regardless of max aperture. Many feel that any little bit helps, but personally I'd like the difference to be at least a full stop before I let that influence anything. At least I don't see any big difference in brightness with the 90/6.8 Angulon over the 90/8 Super Angulon - at least not when you get out from the center of the GG.

jasonjoo · Jun 7, 2008

Thanks Ole. Looks like I'll be going with the 90 f8 SA MC! Now I need to find a lens board and a few film holders!

Geez, this is exciting! The Chamonix 4x5 doesn't even get here until sometime in August!

Jason

Paul Cocklin · Jun 7, 2008

Jason, I've answered your pm. And I will make public here what I tell you in the email. I'll do anything to help get people shooting large format, so I offer a 2 month full money-back guarantee (as long as the lens is not damaged. ) Ole is probably (definitely) the most knowledgeable person whose words I've ever been fortunate enough to read when it comes to lenses. I'm a moron, but I swear I'll never lie to you.

jasonjoo · Jun 7, 2008

Hey Paul,

You had me at, "It's pristine."

Everything in your PM sounds great. Sending one right back at you!

Thanks,

Jason

Paul Cocklin · Jun 7, 2008

Jason, here's a shot taken with the SA 90 f8. This is a scan (a bad one) from a contact print. On the neg, you can count rust flakes on the bolts at the front of the tread...or pine needles on the ground by the trees.

and another:

jeroldharter · Jun 7, 2008

Can't speak to the Schneider, but I have a Caltar 90 mm f6.8 (i.e. the Grandagon) and it is an excellent lens. No problems.

jasonjoo · Jun 7, 2008

Thanks for the sample images Paul! Very cool looking piece of machinery you have there!

For the record everyone, Paul is a GREAT guy! Thanks Paul. Once I receive the invoice, I'll send the money over

Thanks Jerold. I think I'm going to go with the 90 f8 SA for now. I had no idea the Caltar was the same as a Rodenstock? While looking at different lenses, it seems like the Rodenstock lenses are rebranded with other names? Quite confusing!

Jason

Paul Cocklin · Jun 7, 2008

Thanks for the kind words, Jason. I would love it if everyone switched to large format. Anything to make sure film continues to be made.

There are a lot of rebadges and such that make finding your way through the lens world a challenge. I've never known a greater resource than this forum and the large format forum. With people like Ole, Jim Galli and Kerry Thalmann, you know that the answers are out there in their heads. You've just got to pick at them a little.

Paul Cocklin · Jun 8, 2008

Jason, I found this online and figured it may help. 14.634million serial number puts it at probably around February of 1997 manufacture, I would guess.

http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/age_of_lenses/index.htm

jasonjoo · Jun 8, 2008

Cool, thanks Paul!

Jason

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