Anyone looking to manufacture LF film holders might want to check this out

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frobozz

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All,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301654731206

Because ebay listings go stale, for anyone reading this in the archives, that is an auction for the complete set of manufacturing blueprints and technical details for the Fidelity/Lisco film holders, in sizes 3x4, 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14, and 14x17. Apparently this seller purchased them at the Calumet bankruptcy auction. If you want to go into business making film holders, this would be a huge leg up on the process. They're asking $2500 or offer, obviously they're expecting a lower offer. eBay seller is ackmla in case you're trying to hunt them down after the listing expires. (No relationship to seller, just saw the auction and remembered seeing occasional talk of film holder manufacturing on these forums.)

(If someone here does buy all that and wants it digitized, I have a huge scanner and could scan all that stuff in for you.)

Duncan
 

BrianShaw

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Tech data is one thing, but the real find would be the tooling!
 
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This same set was up for auction 11 months ago. It attracted 3 bids, with a high bid of $3.25 and reserve not met. The item was then pulled. The seller this time is the same as last time. See here (the link in the post to the original auction is still good):

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Because APUG threads are also visible outside of APUG, I've kept an eye on this thread over the past year. It has continued a slow, but steady, increase in views. So people have continued to stumble across it.

Maybe the current Calumet, or whoever ended up with this at the bankruptcy auction, decided to try again?

Ken
 
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BrianShaw

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Part of the problem I see with the value of prints is that they are not necessarily unique. I have an old set of space shuttle blueprints in case anyone is interested in reviving that product too.
 

BrianShaw

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I can get us in contact with Elon Musk if you think we have a chance at building a successful business.
 

holmburgers

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Hi all,

Making a plate holder is something that I've thought a lot about lately, as I'm working on a (legit) prototype dry-plate holder at the moment.

My thinking is that the blue prints aren't any more valuable than having the actual film holder there in front of you. Any measurement, dimension, thickness or cut is plainly available and can be measured. The blue prints are only useful, as was alluded to, to the person who makes the tooling.

Any film holder or plate holder made today is going to probably have to be re-designed from the ground up, and manufactured in a much different way than they did with the hundreds of thousands of film holders made by Fidelity over the years.

Just my 2¢
 
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...the blue prints aren't any more valuable than having the actual film holder there in front of you. Any measurement, dimension, thickness or cut is plainly available and can be measured...
Actually, design documentation is more valuable than a sample holder. The actual holder exhibits dimensional variation due to a variety of factors, and shouldn't be relied upon. Keith Canham recently fell into that trap when he measured a single Chamonix holder and built his whole plate camera back around it. :smile:

A more germane observation would be that the offered drawings aren't any more valuable than the ANSI film holder standard for those film sizes, all of which are included in the document.
 

michr

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As for blueprints, there are very old patent applications for film holders available online that I've had a look at, as well as taking ideas from existing film holders. I've built one film holder for xray film out of MDF. I was building a custom box camera, so I did not have to stick with any existing convention; making a clone of an existing holder would have been much more difficult.

New film holders would have to compete with existing used holders on cost. It's already a niche market anyway. The only viable option would be to make speciality sizes for ULF and plate sizes, and perhaps there are some European sizes that aren't readily available like 9x12cm. These are a niche within a niche. I find it hard to believe that these could be produced in small lots at prices that are much better than custom-made holders today.
 

AgX

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We already discussed the first auction attempt here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

Lee Rust

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Any film holder or plate holder made today is going to probably have to be re-designed from the ground up, and manufactured in a much different way than they did with the hundreds of thousands of film holders made by Fidelity over the years.

The wooden dry-plate holders in use at the end of the 19th century were masterpieces of intricate, precision joinery, and large-scale production made for affordable pricing at the time. It's still possible to fabricate these things, but the tiny demand would mean extremely high unit prices, well into the three figure range. The Fidelity-type plastic film holders were mass produced by several manufacturers for at least three generations and are still plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Assuming that sheet film will be available far into the future, and barring any unexpected resurgence in large-format photography, it will be decades before the existing stock of film holders in circulation need to be replaced.

In any event, it's unlikely that wooden or plastic holders will ever again be manufactured in any quantity using the original techniques or materials. Nowadays, custom 3-D printing would be the likely approach. As Holmburgers notes, blueprints would be superfluous, as any existing examples could simply be scanned and copied.
 
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gleaf

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For those who would be interested in buying the blue prints.... the specifications for the holders were once a Mil Spec which eventually became the latest revision ANSI IT3.108 Revision / Edition: 98 Chg: Date: 1998
PHOTOGRAPHY (CAMERAS) - DOUBLE FILM HOLDERS (LOCK-RIB TYPE) - DIMENSIONS

$25.00 from ANSI in PDF.
 

rdg

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blue prints are still valuable

In any event, it's unlikely that wooden or plastic holders will ever again be manufactured in any quantity using the original techniques or materials. Nowadays, custom 3-D printing would be the likely approach. As Holmburgers notes, blueprints would be superfluous, as any existing examples could simply be scanned and copied.

I play/use 3D printers and I am not confident that 3D printing is the future for newly manufactured film holders. 3D Printing has its strong point in preproduction and prototyping but not in any form of actual manufacturing in any scale. If I wanted to have one or two 3D Printing becomes a consideration, but even here the quality and long term use is going to be less than ideal. But for any commercial quantity, even small production runs, I would look to injection molding or another manufacturing technique.

Regardless of the technologies used in 3D Printing the actual product is fragile. It is good to show off to others to demonstrate what you are creating but the life span of any product is far inferior to injection molding or most other production techniques. Does it fit on the camera? Does it look right? is it the right size? Those can be answered with 3D printing but a better, and longer lasting, product can be made with other production techniques.

As much as the blueprints are valuable, and will be required eventually to continue production, the production injection molds are the most valuable right now. With the blueprints I can make new molds for the injection molding machines, something that I will eventually have to do as the molds wear out.

And even with 3D Printing I would still love to have access to blueprints as opposed to trying to scan something and then manufacture it. With the blue prints I know what it is supposed to look like and the dimensions, and tolerances, that I should find. I do not have to guess what is noise and what should be there. Also the scan does not account for wear.

Scans are really useful when I do not have any alternative to finding what it should look like. But they are no more an alternative to the blue prints than a measuring tape. The scanner will have difficulties with overhangs and partially hidden parts while the blue prints will show exactly what it should look like.

Richard
 

AgX

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I see the problems you hinted at in this case. But there are a variety of 3D manufacturing technologies with different materials. And 3D printing is used in índustrial final-product production meanwhile. Even for components for aircraft turbines. In same cases 3D printing is the only way to make that part, in other cases it is the most economic.
Whether this technology can be a manufacturing alternative at the moment for our fim holders I am not sure, as it should end in a part made of ABS or similar, with high dimensional quality and good surface finish. But technolgy is close to it at least.
But they also could be produced in conventional ways other than moulding.
Also could 3D printing be combined with conventional means.
 
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rdg

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I see the problems you hinted at in this case. But there are a variety of 3D manufacturing technologies with different materials. And 3D printing is used in índustrial final-product production meanwhile. Even for components for aircraft turbines. In same cases 3D printing is the only way to make that part, in other cases it is the most economic.
Whether this technology can be a manufacturing alternative at the moment for our fim holders I am not sure, as it should end in a part made of ABS or similar, with high dimensional quality and good surface finish. But technolgy is close to it at least.
But they also could be produced in conventional ways other than moulding.
Also could 3D printing be combined with conventional means.

Where 3D printing is used as a primary production method the cost of doing so is fantastic, more than would be tolerated with consumer production, and that cost is tolerated only because 3D printing is really the only practical way to manufacture those parts. I remember hearing that the US military was using 3D printing as part of the manufacturing process of some of their drones because the small quantity being built would have made any tooling for more conventional methods too expensive. I will agree that 3D printing allows for the production of items that cannot realistically be produced in any other method. I have made some simple herringbone gears where the teeth are in a herringbone pattern. For me, with even a simple 3D printer it is no more difficult than making a regular gear. But to make it conventionally is going to be very difficult.

For the different 3D printing technologies each has its own strengths and weaknesses. For Fused Deposition Modelling (FDM), the current technology that most DIY hobbyists are playing with but also exists on a commercial and better quality scale as well, the issue is cohesion of the laminations or layers. Even when using something like ABS the resulting product is never going to be as strong as with a similar item that was injection moulded. Nor will the surface finish match something that was made in a decent mould. With Stereolithography the cost of the materials is expensive and the production is slow. Within the hobbyist environment this is just starting to appear. The quality is very high, you really have to look very hard to see the layers it was created with, but the parts are also fragile and would have a failure rate that would be unacceptable. And with Laser Sintering, the third general technology within 3D printing, you can do metal, and fairly high detail as well, but the product is porous. The laser is unable to, realistically at a reasonable cost or production rate, melt the materials to create an absolutely solid object. It is close and you are not going to notice the difference but you are probably not going to want to have the part for an high stress function. Of course with that said when someone throws a lot more money at something the quality can improve but those additional costs go up far faster than the increase in quality.

What I want to start to experiment with in the next while is to incorporate other, more conventional technologies, along with 3D printing. Where I start to print out something on a 3D printer and then use other manufacturing technologies, such as milling or a lathe, to finish or modify the part. My ideal experiment would be to have a "pallet" that can fit into various machines and provide a constant 0,0,0 reference point for each of those machines. could print something on the 3D printer, bring it to a CNC mill and have the part worked on there, bring it to a laser cutter/engraver for further work, etc. I could alternate the movement of the part to best accommodate the strengths of each particular machine. I could even have it show up several times at any particular machine if needed.

In the recent past there has been some controversy about the ability to 3D print firearms on machines that consumers have the ability to acquire, although for even a low end commercial system they are still not inexpensive. The quality is nothing close to that of conventional manufacturing and the product life span is also significantly shorter, even to the point of failure with the initial use. A metal workshop, equipped with a mill and a lathe, would still produce a far superior product that is both safer for the user, more capable of fulfilling the design requirements, and would last significantly longer in use.

For me a film holder would have the same higher quality demand as a firearm. I want my film to easily slide into the holder and to be as flat as possible, considering that gravity is going to effect the flatness. Those tolerances, especially in a regular production environment, are not going to be met by 3D printing. But on the other hand I want to show you what my new film holder design is going to look like I will print out a sample based on my new design. You can handle it, probably put film into it, and probably be able to test it in your camera. Do you like it? Is there something that we should change with it? We can put your corporate logo right here like this or would you like it here instead, and we have a sample of that as well. And I can give some to the people making the injection moulds so that they can see exactly what my product is supposed to look like.

Sorry for the long post.

Richard
 

Lee Rust

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Personally, I'm partial to hand-drawn blueprints and hand-tooled molds, but for better or worse these are becoming as anachronistic in the digital age as our clockwork cameras and film emulsions.

Richard, I admittedly have no personal experience with 3-D printing but have noted rapid advances in the technology and can only assume that the finish, strength and durability of printed products will continuously improve. I was in the office supply store yesterday and marveled at the sample items produced by the small desktop 3-D scanner/printer system on display. Ten years ago these devices were a consumer fantasy.

Current industrial-level printing capabilities are much more refined and will rapidly evolve. As to the topic here, it seems pretty clear to me that large-scale injection molded manufacture of things like sheet film holders is history, and any further small-scale fabrication of such specialized items will either be a handcrafted labor of love or some digital simulacrum.
 

rdg

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Those hand drawn blueprints should have information that will never appear in a scan and if you can make even a fair quality mould you are ahead of me. There is still a place for those skills even in an increasingly digital world.

And the quality of even the low end 3D printers and scanners is amazing. I agree that ten years ago they were a consumer, and even a corporate, fantasy. My problem is that by working with 3D printing I get to see the amazing things it can do, and I do have some amazing examples of 3D prints, but more and more I am also seeing where it is just not good enough. As time goes on we will see even cheaper and better machines but I do not know if they will ever reach the quality of other, older, technologies. It may be that we settle for things like 3D printing because eventually it is "good enough" for what we need and the cost of doing it better, or even properly, is too expensive.

You are probably right in that the large scale injection moulding of sheet film holders is history now. There may be small scale short production runs in the future as demand requires and some film holders will be hand crafted labours of love. Probably there will be an amalgamation of technologies that work with the individual strengths of each.

One advantage of digital manufacturing is that the consistency is much higher. If one is good then all tend to be good and if they are terrible then all are consistently terrible in the same way. And overall I do not need to know as much to make something, although I do know that the more I know the better the results.

Just because it was made in a digital environment, with digital equipment, does not mean a lot. Someone having pride in their work and wanting to make a high quality product can do so just as well in a completely digital manufacturing setting as in a hand crafted work place. Inspecting the final product and being willing to tweak it to make it better or to fix a machining issue, such as a small burr, is possible within a digital environment as well. But it takes pride in what you do regardless of the technology used
 
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frobozz

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As much as the blueprints are valuable, and will be required eventually to continue production, the production injection molds are the most valuable right now. With the blueprints I can make new molds for the injection molding machines, something that I will eventually have to do as the molds wear out.

From what I've seen in other situations, I'm guessing the molds are/were sitting in storage at whatever injection molding contractor they were using for production, and that once the storage fees stop being paid it's a pretty short time before the molds are sitting in the mud at the nearest scrap metal yard. All that work down the tubes.

So even with the blueprints, you'd need to get new molds tooled, and nobody is going to see the cost-benefit of that, what with the fairly infinite supply of existing holders.

I made the seller an offer of $50, explaining that I simply wanted to digitize all the stuff for the historical record, since *nobody* was ever going to tool up to make film holders in quantity ever again. Amazingly enough, they turned down my offer ;-)


Duncan
 

BrianShaw

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From what I've seen in other situations, I'm guessing the molds are/were sitting in storage at whatever injection molding contractor they were using for production, and that once the storage fees stop being paid it's a pretty short time before the molds are sitting in the mud at the nearest scrap metal yard. All that work down the tubes.

So even with the blueprints, you'd need to get new molds tooled, and nobody is going to see the cost-benefit of that, what with the fairly infinite supply of existing holders.

I made the seller an offer of $50, explaining that I simply wanted to digitize all the stuff for the historical record, since *nobody* was ever going to tool up to make film holders in quantity ever again. Amazingly enough, they turned down my offer ;-)


Duncan

That has been my experience, also, with regard to tooling.

It does not surprise me that your offer was declined (even though I really think it was a very generous offer). People with stuff like this often seem to think they have a goldmine item... even though they can't complete a sale. I went through that discussion twice with a guy who has a potentially interesting niche-market manuscript, but his interest is selling for lots of money rather than making the information available.
 

Lee Rust

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Someone having pride in their work and wanting to make a high quality product can do so just as well in a completely digital manufacturing setting as in a hand crafted work place. Inspecting the final product and being willing to tweak it to make it better or to fix a machining issue, such as a small burr, is possible within a digital environment as well. But it takes pride in what you do regardless of the technology used

Alas, pride in what you do is an increasingly rare experience for people living in consumer societies.
 

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I take it that the Fidelity film holders that B&H is currently selling have been at their warehouse for a while now...
 
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I take it that the Fidelity film holders that B&H is currently selling have been at their warehouse for a while now...

A long while now. As were the lots KEH purchased (all gone). And the lots Freestyle purchased (currently on clearance). There are just too many old ones available, and not enough photographers who want, and can afford, new ones.

But film holders get beat up petty quickly in normal use. Then what??

I have 30-4x5s, 15-5x7s, and 17-8x10s. All either new, or in nice shape. I'm treating them with great care. We'll see how long they last.

Ken
 
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