Anyone know what’s going on with Oriental?

[Lachlan Young]

Neither Photographer's Formulary nor Artcraft list PMT as available. The former used to offer it, but doesn't now. Other than commercial/industrial chemical supply houses, which typically only deal B2B, are you aware of any PMT sources today?

Moersch Finisher Blue contains it - and SE6 is designed to work well with Finisher Blue. I think 10ml/l of Finisher Blue in fairly strong working strength SE6 is supposed to render even MGWT chilly.

 

[mnemosyne]

AFAIK the recent Oriental papers had nothing to do with the Oriental of former times. I think it was a more or less a marketing ploy by the Japanese importer of Ilfordphoto products for a "private label" paper that they had manufactured by Harman in the UK. Same for the ISO100 and ISO400 b&w films sold under the Oriental brand. Just another reiteration of the Kentmere 100/400, Agfaphoto APX100/400, Rollei RPX 100/400, Adox CHM100/400 ...

 

[MattKing]

Harman makes a significant amount of their revenue toll coating products for others, and I believe that they were manufacturing the Oriental papers even before they purchased Kentmere.

 

[brian steinberger]

I had heard Ilford was coating the oriental papers but never knew if it was true or not. Wonder if there just wasn’t enough demand for it that “Oriental” ultimately stopped production.

 

[NB23]

Yes.

former oriental was just the best. The weight, the way it felt on the touch, the chocolatey warmth of the warm tone paper... was definitely not ILFORD!

Even the way the paper dried: ilford got stiff and was a struggling fight to pile up... while the Oriental paper was easily manipulated and pushed back in the plastic envelopes.

There were clear differences and they were not subtle.

AFAIK the recent Oriental papers had nothing to do with the Oriental of former times. I think it was a more or less a marketing ploy by the Japanese importer of Ilfordphoto products for a "private label" paper that they had manufactured by Harman in the UK. Same for the ISO100 and ISO400 b&w films sold under the Oriental brand. Just another reiteration of the Kentmere 100/400, Agfaphoto APX100/400, Rollei RPX 100/400, Adox CHM100/400 ...

 

[canuhead]

Bergger Presitge Neutral is a wonderful paper, and my main (only really) paper now. I have some of the newer Oriental and it was decent, but I couldn't get it to tone he way I liked. Want to try Adox 110 FB but it's still not available afaik.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

No idea. It has been a few years since I did those experiments. Formulary still lists it in their catalogue but it doesn’t appear to be in stock currently. You could try asking them.

As per Lachlan’s post you could buy a bottle of Moersch Finisher Blue which is a PMT/BTAZ solution, PMT being the active ingredient in developers or additives that actually (ie for real ) change papers from warm or neutral all the way to blue-black depending on how much you use.

Thanks, but since SE6 does what I want on MCC 110, hunting down PMT or buying the Moersch Finisher and using either with another developer wouldn't be much of a gain in convenience.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Thanks, but since SE6 does what I want on MCC 110, hunting down PMT or buying the Moersch Finisher and using either with another developer wouldn't be much of a gain in convenience.

Oddly when I did a series of paper developer tests and experiments several years ago, D-72 (Dektol) produced some of the strongest neutral / cold results, aside from the long discontinued Harman Cooltone developer.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I loved the old graded Oriental Seagull G, but was disappointed with all the VC versions, though I used them. The current Bergger NC VC product will give an analogous look to the real deal when cold toned with gold chloride following a developer like 130. It drops the shadows a bit hard. Ilford MG Cooltone is a great product when similarly treated. My success rate with it is far higher than I ever had with Oriental VC in terms of top-notch output, if a true cold tone image is what you have in mind. But MQ developers like Dektol give an annoying greenish black look with these new papers, and selenium toners need to be used very cautiously or they'll go brown. I've never gotten a true cold tone from MCC, always something a bit purplish brown.

 

[mooseontheloose]

This is news to me but here in Japan Oriental papers are still available (at Yodobashi at least). Guess I'll have to stock up on some while I can. I haven't used the fibre papers, but the RC papers are a lot more affordable than the Ilford ones, and print better than the Fujibro I used to use (until it was discontinued a few years ago - although it is still available as well).

 

[eli griggs]

Some of my favorite prints were done with the old Oriental graded fiber base, and I would give models I tested with, prints on that paper, toned to some degree, as something of a prideful notion on my part.

Ilford Gallery was the other Graded FB I used, and I also used Ilford RC as well, but Graded FB is my preference, forever.

I have a few Orental boxes, for print storage and I will try to see if it was being made in Japan or elsewhere in the late Eighties or early Nineties.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I feel like we've been asking this question since the 1980s. It was legendary, but was it ever a consistently available product?

 

[Wayne]

I feel like we've been asking this question since the 1980s. It was legendary, but was it ever a consistently available product?

Right. And the really good stuff that gave the name its reputation is loooooong gone

 

[Renato Tonelli]

My very first rant in 2021:

I had started a thread awhile back, either here or on the LF forum, asking about Oriental paper availability. The only thing I found out is that it was still available in Japan but no confirmation as to wether it was still being manufactured. I emailed and left voice messages at their distributor in the US (their website still lists the paper) but never received an answer.

I wish that someone living in Japan would make a serious inquiry to verify its manufacturing status. Oriental paper has had an on-off-on again distribution/ availably in the USA going back many years.

I just checked my boxes of Oriental paper and it clearly states ‘Made in Japan’ but, regardless, it may be made by someone other than Oriental; the paper certainly behaves differently to Selenium than the other cold-tone papers FB papers I use (Ilford, Foma). With the Oriental paper I get colder tones than with the others.

ADOX 110 FB - my go-to- warm tone paper is also no longer available; it will supposedly be available again in the near future but nothing is for certain (at least to me); if when it becomes available again, will it have the same characteristics?

I need not tell you how annoying this is to those of us who start long-term projects and print them on specific papers only to see these materials become suddenly unavailable.

 

[mooseontheloose]

My very first rant in 2021:

I had started a thread awhile back, either here or on the LF forum, asking about Oriental paper availability. The only thing I found out is that it was still available in Japan but no confirmation as to wether it was still being manufactured. I emailed and left voice messages at their distributor in the US (their website still lists the paper) but never received an answer.

I wish that someone living in Japan would make a serious inquiry to verify its manufacturing status. Oriental paper has had an on-off-on again distribution/ availably in the USA going back many years.

I just checked my boxes of Oriental paper and it clearly states ‘Made in Japan’ but, regardless, it may be made by someone other than Oriental; the paper certainly behaves differently to Selenium than the other cold-tone papers FB papers I use (Ilford, Foma). With the Oriental paper I get colder tones than with the others.

ADOX 110 FB - my go-to- warm tone paper is also no longer available; it will supposedly be available again in the near future but nothing is for certain (at least to me); if when it becomes available again, will it have the same characteristics?

I need not tell you how annoying this is to those of us who start long-term projects and print them on specific papers only to see these materials become suddenly unavailable.

Renato, I've been frustrated by them as well. Even though the papers are made in Japan, we don't have the same availability here of specific papers within their available range - I've had to order from Freestyle to get the papers I wanted because I could not find them here in Japan. I've tried contacting Oriental more than once to get some information from them, but never heard back. Customer service is clearly not their forte.

 

[Peter Schrager]

My very first rant in 2021:

I had started a thread awhile back, either here or on the LF forum, asking about Oriental paper availability. The only thing I found out is that it was still available in Japan but no confirmation as to wether it was still being manufactured. I emailed and left voice messages at their distributor in the US (their website still lists the paper) but never received an answer.

I wish that someone living in Japan would make a serious inquiry to verify its manufacturing status. Oriental paper has had an on-off-on again distribution/ availably in the USA going back many years.

I just checked my boxes of Oriental paper and it clearly states ‘Made in Japan’ but, regardless, it may be made by someone other than Oriental; the paper certainly behaves differently to Selenium than the other cold-tone papers FB papers I use (Ilford, Foma). With the Oriental paper I get colder tones than with the others.

ADOX 110 FB - my go-to- warm tone paper is also no longer available; it will supposedly be available again in the near future but nothing is for certain (at least to me); if when it becomes available again, will it have the same characteristics?

I need not tell you how annoying this is to those of us who start long-term projects and print them on specific papers only to see these materials become suddenly unavailable.

Quote from the famous Paul Strand..."as soon as I find a paper I like it's discontinued" so nothing has changed as he said this back in the 40's or 50's
that's why I coat my own paper (POP) now
aside from the fact that it costs me pennies. I love making POP prints in the sun!
it's not that hard just buy the book from Denise Ross and join in the fun of emulsion making!
happy new year!
Peter

 

[Lachlan Young]

ADOX 110 FB - my go-to- warm tone paper is also no longer available; it will supposedly be available again in the near future but nothing is for certain (at least to me); if when it becomes available again, will it have the same characteristics?

I need not tell you how annoying this is to those of us who start long-term projects and print them on specific papers only to see these materials become suddenly unavailable.

Adox have essentially stated that MCC110 won't be relaunched until they are happy that it's as close as possible to the extant specifications when coated on their plant in Bad Saarow.

And expecting no change in materials in a project that lasts 5-10+ years is unrealistic. Always has been.

 

[Renato Tonelli]

I distinctly remember reading what Paul Strand wrote about the availability of papers; in reality, nothing much has changed since his time.
As for the rest, let’s hope for the best; I would be content with Ilford and Foma papers - anything more would be icing on the cake.
Coating my own paper wouldn’t be far fetched for me either.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Strand, as I recall, was talking about commercial platinum paper, which was a big loss.

I think Hurrell used to stock up on film in multi-year quantities to be able to dial it in and think about other things, and he was shooting pretty high volume.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Strand, as I recall, was talking about commercial platinum paper, which was a big loss.

I think Hurrell used to stock up on film in multi-year quantities to be able to dial it in and think about other things, and he was shooting pretty high volume.

David not really he was not a big platinum printer and those commercial papers died to pretty much after WW1

 

[Lachlan Young]

Strand, as I recall, was talking about commercial platinum paper, which was a big loss.

I think Hurrell used to stock up on film in multi-year quantities to be able to dial it in and think about other things, and he was shooting pretty high volume.

I think Strand was talking about Kodak Illustrators' Special paper, which he'd used from when he shifted to silver printing until it was discontinued. Richard Benson in Paul Strand: Essays on His Life and Work states that all the noise Strand made was mainly to do with finding a replacement for that paper (which was only ever made in one grade) after several decades of using it - Benson also makes it quite clear that Strand's processing and printing procedures were not complex. For his post WW-2 books Strand seems to have used Kodak Portrait Pan in D-23 (on the advice of Ansel Adams) and printed on Illustrators Special, toned in Nelson's Gold Toner (which has some degree of bleaching effect on highlights), although there is some correspondence with Adams about selenium toners.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

That sounds like it. Thanks, Lachlan and Peter.