Anyone have experience with really expired color film being developed as B&W? Help.

heartben · Jan 16, 2015

Before I get into it - I have developed several other C-41 (black & white and color) film successfully with B&W chemicals so I have an idea what I can expect.

I have a bulk roll of very expired (1990) Kodak Vericolor III (160). I have rolled up a couple small rolls and shot it stock, 100 and 50. They don't really look all that different and the negatives are very... opaque? Is this overexposed/underexposed? I don't know the proper use of the whole "thick/thin" negative thing but I would say they are pretty darn thick. I can that it IS working but it's not nearly as good as some of my other C-41 rolls (some of those were pretty expired as well)

I am curious if I should change speeds, or change the way I develop them..

I have a roll of super expired (1981 - before I was even born!) Tri-X Pan (400) on the way as well. I feel like I should have much better luck with that but I am open to pro tips with it.

Hopefully this is an OK spot to post this. I haven't posted much on here but I am hoping you guys can help me out.

Xmas · Jan 16, 2015

The ageing of film is dependent on conditions as well as time, temperature and humidity can damage film.

removed account4 · Jan 16, 2015

one problem with processing color film ( c-41 ) in black and white chemistry
is the pesky mask. also, the more the film has aged the more chance you have
of it being fogged depending on how it was stored.

what developer did you process the film in?

i just found another roll of expired and exposed 120 film i shot maybe over the summer ?
and i will be processing it in a mixture of coffee developer and print developer. i expect
it to be dense ( thick as you said ) because i over exposed it a little as you did,
and i expect the mask to give me trouble if i print it in the darkroom, so you got pretty expected results

if you are unhappy with you results you can do a few things ..
you might consider doing is bracketing you exposures to see what exposures work the best for you, and do not change the way you develop the film ( yet ).
not sur if you know how to bracket but lets say you have 160 iso ... you expose 1 frame with the meter set to 160, one at 80, and 1 at 320, so 3 exposures, of the same thing
you can do this by tricking you meter and physically changing the iso on your camera or meter, or just changing your fstop or shutter speed up and down it is pretty much the same thing
so, after you bracket a short roll, you will get to see what looks best.
if they all still look not the way you like them to look, you might want to change your development style or developer next.
just change 1 thing do a test, then do 1 other thing do a test, then do another 1 thing, do a test &c ... you don't want to change too many variables at once
its kind of like ruling out "stuff" ...
bracketing is a good way to determine a few things (even with fresh film it is a good thing to do)
often times shutters aren't perfectly times, and light meters aren't completely accurate ... so bracketing helps you determine what settings work best for whatever equipment you are using
and helps you fine tune your materials to the way you develop your film too.

i love using expired film, i think it is fun because things aren't always perfect, but that is just me, I'm not into perfection, have given up on it to be honest.

YMMV

good luck !
john

Alan Johnson · Jan 16, 2015

"Opaque" reads like the old film is fogged and you developed the fog.
This can be reduced by adding say 20ml/liter of 1% benzotriazole solution to the developer.Usually old B/W film needs more exposure and more development to separate the image from the fog.Some experiments with the amount of benzotriazole and the development time would be needed.
Dissolve 1g benzotriazole in 30ml isopropyl alcohol and make up to 100ml with water.

David Lyga · Jan 16, 2015

OK, I had a long thread on this but I will briefly recap:

Yes, you will get STUNNING results if you do it the right way. As far as speed is concerned, it will be the same as if you had processed it in C-41. Given the age, probably start your clip test (one frame) at three stops more exposure. Now do this:

Expose and then develop in Dektol diluted about twice what you use for paper. I would start with a five minute development. Then stop and fix. You will be greeted with a negative that is blacker than hell. Before you throw it away, do this:

No comes the fun part. Mix up Farmer's Reducer and reduce (takes maybe a full five minutes, plus or minus). Watch closely. As the density begins to recede, an amazing thing happens: the VERY weak image GAINS contrast. Be very careful to not overdo this or you will be left with NO image. When the base becomes a very bright orange, chances are the image is at its best, but, again be very careful to not start intruding upon that shadow density.

This is the basics. You will have to do several clip tests in tiny cups in order to get the hang of this, but if you do this with determination, you will be rewarded with images which, in some cases, will be better than with traditional B&W film, as the clouds in the sky will be brilliantly portrayed, as the film is chromogenic.

Best part, even if the film is old, the base density becomes zero after the bleaching. If the neg turns out too weak, either you much expose more or develop longer. YOU have to do the repeated testing, so do not give up easily. - David Lyga

heartben · Jan 16, 2015

David Lyga said:
OK, I had a long thread on this but I will briefly recap:

Yes, you will get STUNNING results if you do it the right way. As far as speed is concerned, it will be the same as if you had processed it in C-41. Given the age, probably start your clip test (one frame) at three stops more exposure. Now do this:

Expose and then develop in Dektol diluted about twice what you use for paper. I would start with a five minute development. Then stop and fix. You will be greeted with a negative that is blacker than hell. Before you throw it away, do this:

No comes the fun part. Mix up Farmer's Reducer and reduce (takes maybe a full five minutes, plus or minus). Watch closely. As the density begins to recede, an amazing thing happens: the VERY weak image GAINS contrast. Be very careful to not overdo this or you will be left with NO image. When the base becomes a very bright orange, chances are the image is at its best, but, again be very careful to not start intruding upon that shadow density.

This is the basics. You will have to do several clip tests in tiny cups in order to get the hang of this, but if you do this with determination, you will be rewarded with images which, in some cases, will be better than with traditional B&W film, as the clouds in the sky will be brilliantly portrayed, as the film is chromogenic.

Best part, even if the film is old, the base density becomes zero after the bleaching. If the neg turns out too weak, either you much expose more or develop longer. YOU have to do the repeated testing, so do not give up easily. - David Lyga

Wow. Your reply makes me more anxious to get this all figured out. I have to admit I have only been doing darkroom photography for ... a few weeks or so? I have some Dektol but I do not have any Farmer's Reducer. I tried looking it up and haven't had any luck finding it.

Do you know where I could get a ... "kit" (from what I have read it is 2 parts) for Farmer's Reducer? I have noticed a lot of people posting about it through my searches but I am not familiar with it. I know people have posted the chemicals in it but I would have no idea where to buy them and I am not sure I would do it right.

Thanks a bunch. Hopefully I can get some of this Farmer's Reducer and do this right!

heartben · Jan 16, 2015

jnanian said:
one problem with processing color film ( c-41 ) in black and white chemistry
is the pesky mask. also, the more the film has aged the more chance you have
of it being fogged depending on how it was stored.

what developer did you process the film in?

i just found another roll of expired and exposed 120 film i shot maybe over the summer ?
and i will be processing it in a mixture of coffee developer and print developer. i expect
it to be dense ( thick as you said ) because i over exposed it a little as you did,
and i expect the mask to give me trouble if i print it in the darkroom, so you got pretty expected results

if you are unhappy with you results you can do a few things ..
you might consider doing is bracketing you exposures to see what exposures work the best for you, and do not change the way you develop the film ( yet ).
not sur if you know how to bracket but lets say you have 160 iso ... you expose 1 frame with the meter set to 160, one at 80, and 1 at 320, so 3 exposures, of the same thing
you can do this by tricking you meter and physically changing the iso on your camera or meter, or just changing your fstop or shutter speed up and down it is pretty much the same thing
so, after you bracket a short roll, you will get to see what looks best.
if they all still look not the way you like them to look, you might want to change your development style or developer next.
just change 1 thing do a test, then do 1 other thing do a test, then do another 1 thing, do a test &c ... you don't want to change too many variables at once
its kind of like ruling out "stuff" ...
bracketing is a good way to determine a few things (even with fresh film it is a good thing to do)
often times shutters aren't perfectly times, and light meters aren't completely accurate ... so bracketing helps you determine what settings work best for whatever equipment you are using
and helps you fine tune your materials to the way you develop your film too.

i love using expired film, i think it is fun because things aren't always perfect, but that is just me, I'm not into perfection, have given up on it to be honest.

YMMV

good luck !
john

I used D-76 to develop. I developed for 7.5 minutes (too long? too short maybe?). I actually just shot and processed my very first roll of 120 and I think it was like ... 16 years old or something? It came out totally fine so I am sure yours will be fine. I have heard about coffee developer but I haven't looked in to making my own. Are there any major benefits if I already have access to normal developer?

I have only been shooting film for a few weeks but I find myself being drawn to expired film and I also have an interest in developing color film as b&w (obviously). I should note that I do mostly use normal b&w film so I have a little more experience getting expected results with that.

I am trying to figure out where I can get Farmer's Reducer to try a method posted someone else in this thread posted. It sounds pretty promising. I don't know a lot about all the chemicals and things people have posted but I am anxious to learn.

trythis · Jan 16, 2015

just a guess but, have you looked at the photographers formulary web site?

Fixcinater · Jan 16, 2015

I've done a few C41 rolls in HC110 and D76, a few being enough disappointment for me. Lots of work in digi post prod. to get anything even close to workable, never mind print worthy. Most of it was unknown as far as storage was concerned, so maybe fresh (not 20 years+ expired) would be better, I don't know.

I wouldn't choose to dev fresh Portra in D76, though.

Athiril · Jan 16, 2015

If you've for your own C-41 chems and its C-41 process. I would add 10g/L of potassium bromide to working solution. Overexpose the film 2 stops and increase the time from 3m 15s to 4m 15s. This separates a lot of base fog.

David Lyga · Jan 17, 2015

Fixcinater said:
I've done a few C41 rolls in HC110 and D76, a few being enough disappointment for me. Lots of work in digi post prod. to get anything even close to workable, never mind print worthy. Most of it was unknown as far as storage was concerned, so maybe fresh (not 20 years+ expired) would be better, I don't know.

I wouldn't choose to dev fresh Portra in D76, though.

NO, NO. NO. You MUST use paper developer to get the results I state. Film developer will not do the job adequately. You must 'bomb' the halides with the extra accelerator that is contained within paper developer.

When you finish developing and fixing, you will be seeing a VERY dark, WEAK image that is surrounded by fog, fog, and yet MORE fog.

This is where the Farmer's Reducer comes in: It works like a miracle, turning that film into a magnificent image, but takes a long time: maybe up to ten minutes in some cases. The base density turns to bright orange and that image gains contrast and becomes stunning in quality. Honestly, you may call me for me to walk you though this, even though I stated the basics, here. 215.569.4949 - David Lyga

David Lyga · Jan 17, 2015

You do not have to buy Farmer's Reducer, as potassium ferricyanide added to film-strength fixer will work fine. It will not last more than 15 minutes mixed thusly. To make the bleach solution (which lasts indefinitely) mix either one gram or (measured volumetrically) one ml of potassium ferricyanide in 50ml of water. This is your bleach. Then, mix one part of bleach to one part of fixer to make the reducer. THAT mixture will last only about 15 minutes.

Use tiny quantities of these mixtures, as you will need to to many clip tests until you get right the: 1) exposure in the camera, 2) length of time to develop the film at ambient temp, 3) the time needed to reduce (5 to 10 minutes, but if you reduce too much you will begin eliminating the actual image).

Make clip tests in your camera, exposing only a few frames at a time at different film speeds. Best to make ALL exposures at a static object (with shadow detail) inside your home under predictable lighting (tungsten is fine, but be advised that color film is MUCH faster under tungsten light than traditional BW film is, by about TWO stops). In daylight both types are the same speed. - David Lyga 215.569.4949 (will return your calls but to TALK to me at length about this, you must call right back in order to absorb toll charges, yourself)

What you must keep in mind is this: the resultant negative might have to be more contrasty than your regular BW negatives if you use VC paper for enlarging. Reason: the orange mask acts as a low contrast 'filter', thus necessitates having to use a more contrasty negative. If you use graded paper, make the negative normal contrast. - David Lyga

removed account4 · Jan 17, 2015

heartben said:
I used D-76 to develop. I developed for 7.5 minutes (too long? too short maybe?). I actually just shot and processed my very first roll of 120 and I think it was like ... 16 years old or something? It came out totally fine so I am sure yours will be fine. I have heard about coffee developer but I haven't looked in to making my own. Are there any major benefits if I already have access to normal developer?

I have only been shooting film for a few weeks but I find myself being drawn to expired film and I also have an interest in developing color film as b&w (obviously). I should note that I do mostly use normal b&w film so I have a little more experience getting expected results with that.

I am trying to figure out where I can get Farmer's Reducer to try a method posted someone else in this thread posted. It sounds pretty promising. I don't know a lot about all the chemicals and things people have posted but I am anxious to learn.

nope no major benefits except you can make it out of household items and it works great ( and fun when you tell people you processed film in coffee )

good luck with that farmer's reducer !

you will have to re-fix the film afterwards because it will be light sensitive again ( from what i remember )
its been a long time since i used it ...

Anyone have experience with really expired color film being developed as B&W? Help.

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