Anyone else feel like this?

Bob Carnie · Jul 1, 2012

It does in my darkroom , maybe not yours , but believe me it is a fact and know many that work that way.

I understand the learning curve, trials and errors, but my posts refer to that magic moment in your printing life where it does become easy and you can loosen up and make prints.

Michael R 1974 said:
Bill, I wasn't referring to your post in particular. It's just that I find in general on APUG there is so little focus on printing skill and effort. There is this recurring theme - that it shouldn't be all that difficult to make great prints from good negatives, that you should only have to look at a work print for a few seconds in order to decide what to change or what to do next. It just doesn't always go that way.

tkamiya · Jul 1, 2012

I am waiting for a moment for this printing stuff to become easy and a second nature....

Are we there yet? How about now?
NOPE!

Bob Carnie · Jul 1, 2012

I will give you that Michael.

The OP makes some pretty damm fine images right now , my experience and it can be different from others just tells me that he is really close to where he should be.
I watched MAS makes some prints here in my darkroom during the first APUG conference and boy did he make it simple.
I have watched Bill Schwab print here also and he is surprising quick in his decision making, same goes for Mr G .
Though I have tremendous respect for Tim Rudman and his printing... the twenty minute test strips were IMO staggering painful to watch.

I guess I am not trying to tell the OP to speed up, dumb down, but basically be more confident and hang a few prints for feedback or he may never get out of the darkroom and we will have to send in a squad to drag him out.

Michael R 1974 said:
Not doubting how it goes in your darkroom, Bob. I'm just saying there are different kinds of images, and also different kinds of personalities. Given the same level of technical skill and experience, some people just take longer to make decisions (for example). There are great printers who work in all sorts of different ways. It's the same with painters, musicians and on and on.

tkamiya · Jul 1, 2012

Bob,

I have a question.... I actually tried this fast decision making thing earlier in my darkroom dwelling carrier. Make a print, evaluate while still in liquid, discard. Try again.... discard. As I got close, added a washing and drying (with hair dryer) step. Discard. Repat.

This kind of working habbit worked with RC but not with FB. Quick drying gets it close but the result is yet different from slow complete drying.

What I ended up was, lots of wasted paper. Worse, I found, the next day, I actually liked what I trashed. Those were closer to what I wanted than those I kept as "best of the day".

That's when I adopted my current printing style where I establish the base exposure first and print one then let it dry completely - then evaluate the next day. I basically repeat this every darkroom session. I only print one frame at a time, too. Admittedly, it works. After 2 months of frustrating time and half a box of paper, I get to where I find it's close enough that further printing won't improve it. But it is SO DARN SLOW!

I guess my problem is not being evaluate accurately enough without completely drying it.

How do you suggest I improve on this aspect?

henk@apug · Jul 1, 2012

I too use a microwave to dry and judge fiber print teststrips. Quick (1,5 min), No surprises afterwards.

Bob Carnie · Jul 1, 2012

I would then suggest get a big ass microwave... won't help you with murals but yes for smaller prints.

I have never used one but it obviously works for others and worth the try.

removed account4 · Jul 1, 2012

a blow dryer works wonders to dry down prints, and costs nothing compared to a microwave.

i agree with you ralph ..

zsas · Jul 1, 2012

Why not get a print dryer? It works great with matte paper, although I do think when you add in variables to your printing that increase the complexity (eg toners, Berg, selenium, etc) , getting your final print will take much more time....

But if dry down is taking your mojo away, maybe a print dryer will help? Sounds like blow dryers, micro work for others too. I have found a Premier dryer to work great w matte paper....

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/2032-Premier-Thermostatic-Print-Dryer-Model-T2C

removed account4 · Jul 1, 2012

that sounds like a recipe for weird-stuff
microwaving partially washed chemical-laced prints ...
and microwaves are notorious for having leaky seals too ...

a blow dryer isn't a radiation station, just a heat coil and a fan,
and it takes about 20 seconds to make a rc print bone dry and a little
longer for fiber ... and a cheap hair dryer costs about $6 USD
( and are good for drying your hands if they are wet and you need to handle paper or film )

YMMV

eddie · Jul 1, 2012

tkamiya said:
That's when I adopted my current printing style where I establish the base exposure first and print one then let it dry completely - then evaluate the next day. I basically repeat this every darkroom session. I only print one frame at a time, too. Admittedly, it works. After 2 months of frustrating time and half a box of paper, I get to where I find it's close enough that further printing won't improve it. But it is SO DARN SLOW!

I guess my problem is not being evaluate accurately enough without completely drying it.

How do you suggest I improve on this aspect?

I think you're close to getting the results you want. If dry down is your only problem, there's a test I'd suggest. Make a print that looks good to you while wet. Then make a few, with 5-10-15% less exposure. Let them all dry overnight, and evaluate the results. If it helps, you can re-wet the original print, for comparison. Then, you can tweak it a bit- 5% not enough, but 10% is too much? Try 7%.

brian steinberger · Jul 1, 2012

eddie said:
I think you're close to getting the results you want. If dry down is your only problem, there's a test I'd suggest. Make a print that looks good to you while wet. Then make a few, with 5-10-15% less exposure. Let them all dry overnight, and evaluate the results. If it helps, you can re-wet the original print, for comparison. Then, you can tweak it a bit- 5% not enough, but 10% is too much? Try 7%.

This is a good idea. I always dry test strips in the microwave. 1 minute works for an 8x10 sheet for me, but all microwaves are different. The results should resemble a fully air dried print, just that the microwaved print will be warmer in tone. Maybe you're not fully drying in the microwave? Maybe need to give longer time. Is it just your highlights that are drying down or are your prints in general too dark? What light are you inspecting them in? Same light as they are to be displayed in?

eddie · Jul 1, 2012

Another thing I'd suggest is that you don't throw out your mistakes. If you have one that's close, but the highlights are getting slightly blocked up on dry down, use a very dilute Pot Ferry/Bromide solution. When I need a touch more, in the highlights, I'll do this. I'll dilute it about 4 times the recommendation, so I have about a full minute to tweak the highlights (sometimes 30 seconds will do it). The shadows won't really go anywhere with this technique.

tkamiya · Jul 1, 2012

I hope I'm as close to my target as everyone thinks I am....

In the mean time, I'm back in my darkroom. Bye!

tkamiya · Jul 1, 2012

Putting rapid decision making in practice, so far, I have 5 sheets in trash and I did that in last 45 minutes!

Bob Carnie · Jul 2, 2012

Trash bin will be your friend.

tkamiya said:
Putting rapid decision making in practice, so far, I have 5 sheets in trash and I did that in last 45 minutes!

Bill Burk · Jul 2, 2012

tkamiya said:
Putting rapid decision making in practice, so far, I have 5 sheets in trash and I did that in last 45 minutes!

Well, if it's not a step in the right direction, at least it doesn't sound like a step backwards...

Have you come up in your mind with a concept of "least noticeable difference"?

At Grade 2, I call it 1/3 stop exposure. Sure if I were to critically examine, I may see a difference closer than that. But in terms of self-direction - that's where I say "I want that" versus the step next to it.

I am afraid at Grade 4 it is more like 1/6 stop or possibly less. So that's why I like to aim for Grade 2.

Lootens gave a good tip: Make test strips significantly darker and lighter than you want. Include a two minute test exposure when your chosen time might be 30 seconds. Then you can be sure that you gave yourself all the possibilities to choose from.

I particularly like Ralph's suggestion to move the paper as you make test strips so you can see how the times affect important image areas (instead of the easier "move the cardboard" type test strip where only one strip covers the subject and it's probably wrong).

tkamiya · Jul 2, 2012

Bill,

No... It bothers me if the exposure was 1/3 stop off in critical areas. especially in skin tone in portrait. In some areas, it just doesn't matter....

I tend to print with grade 2 to 3 most of the time, depending on paper. I tend NOT to like images with too much contrast and in-your-face kind of bold printing. My images tend to be soft and gentle and that starts form the subjects I pick.

I actually have Ralph's local area test strip maker but I don't use it. I find I can get close enough without it and by the time I'm looking at density in relation to near by areas and/or evaluating the print as a whole, it really doesn't help me.

Last night's rapid decision making session was somewhat of a success. I got two good prints out of it that aren't 100% right but within the margin of very good enough. That's without toning but I can only take one step at a time. I produced the same amount of trash but did so in shorter time. Which I guess is an improvement.

tkamiya · Jul 2, 2012

Here's a question....

In this rapid decision making stuff, problem I encounters are delicate highlights. The kind that's barely there. These gentle highlights disappears completely when the paper isn't dry. I can't tell the difference between paper base white and light exposure. If I exposed it to a point it's there, it's often too dark. It also changes appearance when it's completely dry and pressed. Hair dryer doesn't dry well enough to make the final call.

How do you masters deal with this?

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 2, 2012

I'm hardly a master, but I sometimes use bleach after I am done printing to adjust small things that bug me.
Check out YouTube, and search for 'Bruce Barnbaum Bleaching'. I have a piece of plexi glass that I lean at a 45 degree angle, to which a wet print sticks. I keep running water around (ready to be applied to the print at any time via a hose), and a tray of fixer. I gently work the areas that need bleaching with a fine paint brush, and after a few small adjustments rinse the entire print and fix again to make the action permanent. It's kind of like reverse spotting.
It takes a lot of guesswork and some frustration out of the printing, and allows you to make small adjustments after the print is fixed.

Often times, however, like Bob says, I try not to sweat the very minute details too much. In reality, however, that just means that we're different, and since you say you're bothered with very small differences in, for example, skin tone, you are likely more critical about the printing results than most - in which case you have to accept that your success rate in the darkroom will be perceived lower, and re-work ratio much higher. More critical = more work to get to the end result of a print that satisfies your senses. All this that you're going through may simply be a side-effect of being highly critical of your own output and you have to either learn to live with it, or relax your standards. In the end, as you practice, you will become a better printer. At the same time, you may or may not become more critical, because the more you know the more you notice.
I think there is a slight distinction to be made here - like a type A and B scenario. A focus on the pictures almost entirely and don't worry so much about how they're printed, and B are the opposite. Of course there are those who care about both, as each of us have a component of each baked into our personality. The rare combination is to be a great photographer, making great photographs, is great at editing, and then knows how to really make it happen at the printing stage.

Finally, if you haven't already, I recommend looking up Gene Nocon's f-stop printing. Perhaps not incredibly revolutionary, but it does teach us a lot about print interpretation, and had people like Yousuf Karsh asking what Gene's secret was. Now that is something to be flattered by, since Karsh and his printer were hardly slouches, but critical of their work.

Bob Carnie · Jul 2, 2012

Highlight detail is critical to nail,,, a simple method that I use and know Les McLean uses as well is a slight flash to establish tone to separate from paper white... but also most important is to burn in with a grade 5... yes counterintuitive but a great tool.

In any highlight region there are less bright tones that with the grade 5 and a burn you start darkening detail that is not white, which in effect has the ability to fool the eye into thinking there is detail... I see so many people burning in with 00 until the highlights look like mud.
I do the exact opposite and use the 5 filter to define detail within the highlights and our eyes will fill in the rest.. a little flash may also make a tone which is great.
here in Canada I print a lot of snow scenes.. due to our northern position and a grade 5 burn is necessary to make snow alive in the print

Our eyes are amazing at filling in gaps if you give them just enough information.

Beach scenes with white sand would be another sample of a type of image that needs grade 5 burn... Just for you southerners eh.

tkamiya said:
Here's a question....

In this rapid decision making stuff, problem I encounters are delicate highlights. The kind that's barely there. These gentle highlights disappears completely when the paper isn't dry. I can't tell the difference between paper base white and light exposure. If I exposed it to a point it's there, it's often too dark. It also changes appearance when it's completely dry and pressed. Hair dryer doesn't dry well enough to make the final call.

How do you masters deal with this?

tkamiya · Jul 2, 2012

Bob,

Thanks a lot. That 00 and 5 *thing* always confused me when it comes to using it to burn in.

Grade 00 will cause shadow to build up density slowly where highlight builds up the same as #2, correct? Grade 5 will cause shadow to build up density much faster where highlight again builds up the same as #2.

So if I burn with 00, the whole area will build up the density with detail becoming less and less.
If I burn with 5, the shadow ill build up much faster so the difference between highlight and shadow become more and more.

Did I get that right?

Thomas:
Yes, I know about bleaching but I'd like to get my printing as close as I can to what I want first. Thanks though.

Bob Carnie · Jul 2, 2012

Yes you did grasshopper.

You can get detail with the lower filter but after a while it will just start looking like mud.
This is where the current VC Papers and Graded of Past differ. When there was only graded paper getting good highlight detail was always a lot of burning in and you always would see a softening/ muddying up of the highlights because of fixed grade issues.
I love graded paper , don't get me wrong, but this is a real dealbreaker improvement with the new papers.

by using the 5 you will create local contrast and sharper looking highlights as you describe.
I suggest burning with both depending upon your needs,
I look for slight difference between the white under the easel blades and lets say a white sky, the moment I see the line of the blades is when wet I stop. Same goes for snow.

I burn in with 5 on all prints, not all prints get a burn in with the lower filter.

tkamiya said:
Bob,

Thanks a lot. That 00 and 5 *thing* always confused me when it comes to using it to burn in.

Grade 00 will cause shadow to build up density slowly where highlight builds up the same as #2, correct? Grade 5 will cause shadow to build up density much faster where highlight again builds up the same as #2.

So if I burn with 00, the whole area will build up the density with detail becoming less and less.
If I burn with 5, the shadow ill build up much faster so the difference between highlight and shadow become more and more.

Did I get that right?

Thomas:
Yes, I know about bleaching but I'd like to get my printing as close as I can to what I want first. Thanks though.

tkamiya · Jul 2, 2012

Wipe on.... wipe off...

Rafal Lukawiecki · Jul 2, 2012

I had very similar feelings, tkamiya, that I was spending too much time working on a negative, at best able to get, very occasionally, two images in a session, sometimes one, but usually going back to it the next time, to finish working on it. I kind of felt guilty of using up so much precious time, and paper.

jordanstarr said:
You need to revisit your technique, maybe even get a consultation from a Master Printer for a couple hours.

I attended a wonderful workshop with a well-known master printer, which I have enjoyed greatly. I learned a lot. And I no longer felt guilty, as I learned that he would often leave a set-up negative in his enlarger for a week, or weeks, at a time, working on a print, repeatedly, day after day. I suppose that's why he would use a second enlarger for another negative, but in principle, it was a discovery for me, that someone could work on a print so much. It made me feel happier. I have never aspired to be prolific in quantity, though I admire, very much indeed, those who dothere are great, very experienced printers with tens of thousands of prints behind them. I would like to learn from them. I just don't think I could be one.

As a result of my discovery during that workshop, I felt liberated not having to rush into needing to come out with a result on the night, every night. Sure, I would love to, and I will Se tone it, but I know I will usually get back to it, another day. With luck, on a 3rd or 4th night it looks good enough to me, but I still have much to learn! Now I only slightly regret that many of my past prints got a bit rushed. My plan, this summer, is to reprint several of them, slowly. I hope that slowly will get a bit faster, some time.

Old-N-Feeble · Jul 2, 2012

Hah!! Wait until you've been out of the "real" darkroom for 30 years. You'll give up and go hybrid. Hell... I haven't even gone hybrid. I can't even make myself capture a single image... a by-product of family/financial/health issues... and civil service hell. Hey... at least you're still trying.

ETA: I think I'd best stop posting tonight. I don't want to get booted off this forum like I was another popular one... MY OWN FAULT though.

Anyone else feel like this?

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