Anyone else feel like this?

tkamiya · Jun 28, 2012

I can't just make a print anymore....

When I RE-started this *darkroom thing* a few years ago, I could go into my darkroom for a few hours and churn out 5 prints or so and come out satisfied I did something. Those prints were *beautiful*. None of those images required any dodging and burning, either. I was GOOD!

Now few years later, I work on ONE frame for over a month. Go into D/R, print *just* one image. Process it all the way and wait few hours to dry.... hum.... NOPE. Not right! Not even close!! Go back in again and print a few with varying exposure, contrast, etc, etc, etc.... wash and dry.... meh.... Back again the next day and get something close..... Tone, wash, and dry.... arghhhhh! Too dark! Too light! Wrong color! Back to square one. 15 sheets of 11x14 later, get something close. Oh no.... a drying mark/stain/a defect!

These days, it takes 2 months and half a box of paper to print one satisfying image.

That's IT! I'm going digital! Darkroom for sale!

Oh, wait.... I have to print a few more..... be back shortly....

Christopher Walrath · Jun 28, 2012

Oh, I see you suffer from YOWCS (Your Own Worst Critic Syndrome). We have meetings every third Thursday and we have cookies.

When I do print I find more often than not I revisit old work and see what I want to do differently rather than to select a new neg and crack it instead.

tkamiya · Jun 28, 2012

I don't like cookies. I want muffins.... I'm also busy on Thursday. That's my printing day, you know....

removed account4 · Jun 28, 2012

hey there

how about doing a test strip,
to test for dry-down
and do another and test for dry down+tone down ?
that way you can dial down your enlarger by x-seconds ( or 1/10 seconds )
so you won't be frustrated by those things at least ..

its kind of like the joke about the little old lady who insists her gas smells like flowers
( her friends disagree, and tell her to seek help )
she goes to the dr's office and demonstrates for him, he opens the window
and says -- first things first, we have to fix your nose ..

so fix your dry down times first, then work on the other stuff

( and don't forget to have fun ! )

tkamiya · Jun 28, 2012

Doing it. Done that. Have it already.

My nose works, too.

It's SO annoying an left of nose about 1/3 of way up needs a little more exposure and cropping is 1/8" off... or when toning isn't quite warm enough or a bit too warm, and it's a result of sepia first and selenium next.... basically fully toned so there's no more room for adjustment....

I gave up on dry down stuff. I wait until FULLY dry then evaluate. I can guesstimate fairly well but dry down affects differently depending on the density of the area. Overall impression of the image cannot be guessed accurately enough.

Time for coffee! (and a muffin)

Klainmeister · Jun 28, 2012

I hear ya! Burned through 100 sheets the other night to no avail.....wtf!???

....also went to work tired and more poor than before

jordanstarr · Jun 28, 2012

I agree with John. You need to revisit your technique, maybe even get a consultation from a Master Printer for a couple hours. It might cost a chunk in the beginning, but they can point out where you're going "wrong" and maybe save you a couple hundred dollars worth of paper and a priceless amount of frustration in the future. OR you could give us a full detail post on your process or make a video and post the link here and a lot of great printers will chime in to give some advice.

If the problem isn't in technique, it might be in just the critical eye. If this is the case, I don't think you need to worry so stressfully. I can work on a print for 4 hours and not feel right about it at the end of the day. But then I show it to some of my photographer friends who say "that is gorgeous!" and I'm sitting there thinking "it's too dark on the subject, corner highlights could use a blast of #00 burining, I could have bleached the face a little more and put it in the toner for longer......etc. etc.". It kinda comes with the territory. But if you once had it, you can get it back. I've gone days in the darkroom without turning out a print I thought was "exhibition quality" just 'cause I wasn't in the right mindspace or too stressed about a relationship and the list goes on. Be persistent in finding the solution, 'cause honestly, if prints are what you really take and enjoy out of photography, digital won't fix that for ya. There's NOTHING like a darkroom print and this doesn't seem like an unsolvable problem.

summicron1 · Jun 29, 2012

tkamiya said:
I can't just make a print anymore....

When I RE-started this *darkroom thing* a few years ago, I could go into my darkroom for a few hours and churn out 5 prints or so and come out satisfied I did something. Those prints were *beautiful*. None of those images required any dodging and burning, either. I was GOOD!

Now few years later, I work on ONE frame for over a month. Go into D/R, print *just* one image. Process it all the way and wait few hours to dry.... hum.... NOPE. Not right! Not even close!! Go back in again and print a few with varying exposure, contrast, etc, etc, etc.... wash and dry.... meh.... Back again the next day and get something close..... Tone, wash, and dry.... arghhhhh! Too dark! Too light! Wrong color! Back to square one. 15 sheets of 11x14 later, get something close. Oh no.... a drying mark/stain/a defect!

These days, it takes 2 months and half a box of paper to print one satisfying image.

That's IT! I'm going digital! Darkroom for sale!

Oh, wait.... I have to print a few more..... be back shortly....

I have days like that. The way i see it, ur getting better but still in transition -- be patient with yourself. Try for more subtle changes, and if you find yourself really stuck on a print after five tries, put it aside, go have a beer/coffee/walk and then come back.

Good printing is hard work -- and when printing with FB paper be sure and leave it in the developer AT LEAST two minutes -- Imogen Cunningham did it that way for better blacks and whites. It works. Also gives you more time for a little zen thing to happen so you are more patient with yurself.

Guillaume Zuili · Jun 29, 2012

Some days nothing works. Whatever you do. I just leave the darkroom to not get frustrated and wait for the "darkroom gods" to come back.

Arkasha · Jun 29, 2012

Guillaume Zuili said:
Some days nothing works. Whatever you do. I just leave the darkroom to not get frustrated and wait for the "darkroom gods" to come back.

I think they deleted my address . . .

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2012

1) Yes but sometimes my sessions are experimental in nature
2) If something is not there on the neg, I know enough not to try to get'em out. Otherwise, that's what dodging and burning are for....
3) Not often enough or not as often as I'd like

Bob Carnie · Jun 29, 2012

Sound to me like you are trying to make the perfect print....

well forget about that, no such thing.. I think you need to hang a few prints on a few walls and enjoy them. When I first started seriously printing silver prints for others I would try to make that perfect print.. after a few hundred portfolios and gallery shows,, and standing in the room observing how others appreciated my prints , I started to understand , that though I knew in my heart I could make a better print, people really liked my work.

Now after a few thousand portfolios and gallery shows , I just go in and move forward with my trays and make what I think are good prints and let them hang.
I am preparing a show of my personal work that is about to travel and I am using the above guidelines. They are not perfect prints, but I am confident enough to know they can hang well, I just hope the imagery works for others.

seadrive · Jun 29, 2012

If you really work for hours on a print, and don't realize it's wrong until you've completely processed and dried it... there's something wrong.

Evaluate the print at each stage in the process, after each decision you make. Always evaluate prints in the same place, at the same viewing angle, and under the same light source. Otherwise, you're constantly comparing apples and oranges.

Write down everything you do with a print. Fred Picker called it "the recipe". Start with the image size, the paper you're printing on, the developer you're using, development time/temp, etc. Write down your initial exposure time. Then add a note for each burn or dodge, until you have the print's recipe. Finish up with whatever toning you do with it.

If you evaluate the print at each stage of the process, you should never get all the way to the end, and realize that you're not even close! :confused:

If you don't know how you got to a certain point, and the end result isn't what you wanted, you have to start all over again, because everything affects everything else!

Vincent Brady · Jun 29, 2012

I usually print 8x10 RC photos as best I can and then check where the problems may lie when I go larger and use FB.

LJSLATER · Jun 29, 2012

Every couple of months or so, I quit photography for good. "That's it," I tell my wife, "I'm done. This whole photography thing was fun while it lasted, but it's going nowhere and I can't stand it any longer."

My last printing session a couple of years ago was a nightmare; I think my biggest mistake was trying to attempt 10-hour sessions in a temporary (bathroom) darkroom with not enough ventilation. None of those prints turned out.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 29, 2012

Printmaking - the final stage of the process, and also kind of where it begins.

Take into consideration that every step of the way up until the printing stage, serves the actual print. Exposure, filtration, film, film developer, agitation, dilution, process, camera, composition, lens, lighting, etc, etc, etc... All that is distilled into the negative, transferring to the print.
I find that if I am consistent in how I shoot and how I process the film, the printing becomes much more straight forward. I know that my approach isn't for everyone, but take the following scenario into account:
Currently I'm reprinting a series of pictures that are between four and six years old. I used many different types of negative film and developer combinations, and have tremendous trouble making the whole portfolio look somewhat cohesive. Every print takes several sheets of paper to get right, and the stack of paper in the trash can is much taller than usual.
If I pick up one of my more current negatives, I put it in the enlarger, print with white light and without filtration on variable contrast Ilford MGIV or MGWT paper, and within two sheets I have something that I'm reasonably pleased to use as a base for a final print. The difference is, in one word, consistency.

Taken into account is the increase in experience that I gain over the years, where I question the content and how it's printed, and knowing more is knowing less in a way, because a lot more subtle nuances are noticed, nuances that I will want to correct for when I print. Still I find that I arrive at a good work print faster now than ever.

I don't know what your work flow is, so I'm not even sure this will be of help to you, but it might be something to consider for anyone that is finding difficulty in coming to grips with getting prints they accept and like.

----

I also agree with Michael's observation above about the work print - it's probably best to let the work print basically be as simple representation of the negative, and not too overly complicated with toning and such.

Finally I'd like to second Bob Carnie's advice above too. He has done a massive amount of printing in his days, and most advice he's given me in the past has been of tremendous value. I guess at the heart of the message is - if the picture itself is strong enough in its content and composition, it may not be necessary to chase the 'perfect print'. Although when you view his prints, you'd think he's full of shit, because they look damned near perfect to me...

Good luck! I hope you find a good way to move forward again.

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2012

How are you guys making decisions early in the process?

I make test prints. Get the exposure in the ballpark. Get the tweaking such as dodging and burning in the ballpark. I do this with quick drying with hair dryer. Then, I make a full size print with complete processing - complete with full wash. This is the first day.

I then let it air dry, then hot press. Evaluate. This is my second day.

At this point, flaws become apparent. Prints look different when air dried and completely dried. (yes - looks different from quick dry with the hair dryer) Highlight looks little different. Shadow looks different. Contrast looks different. As such, the print as a whole looks different. I wait until the next day on purpose. I'm fresh. I'm not tired. I can evaluate more less as a second person - not someone who worked on it for hours.

THEN the real fun begins. Adjust the exposure, contrast, tweak dodge and burn, etc, etc, etc. From this point forward, I include toning in the process and stop and evaluate every potential candidate. Which means the result is not available until the next day.

I can guesstimate and plan for dry down. But, seeing a print is the only way for me before start making adjustments. As Bob says, yup, I am trying to make a "perfect" print by my standard - which is probably not even "good enough" by Bob's standard. At this skill level, that's all I can do....

I am aware how drying changes highlight and shadow differently. I know which way it moves and approximately how much. It's not that simple for me - when the print as a whole looks so different - far more than those individual changes.

The print I'm working on right now - a portrait, I got all the elements right. But as a whole print, a product, it doesn't say what I want it to say. A little too dark, little too purple. I went too far in selenium toning. I sepia toned it first to bring out the warmth then selenium (deep 1:5) to cool it down. I went too far! I actually have a larger print I did this perfectly. I'm now trying to size it down a bit as the former print was too large. Grrrr....

I am noticing, size does matter. The same process that looked good on large size print doesn't necessary look the same (as a whole) when it is scaled down.

pbromaghin · Jun 29, 2012

Michael R 1974 said:
One "caution" I'd hold up at this point though, spending hours and lots of paper on a single image does not necessarily mean you are doing something wrong, particularly with a complex image. A casual reminder here (as I've harped on about before), nobody ever said making great prints was easy, no matter how much skill you have. Many times, you'll have to plain work your ass off, and there is nothing wrong with that.

snippity

Consider people like George Tice or John Sexton for example. Lots of paper in the trash before they are happy. And over time they might make pretty substantial changes when reprinting images they've printed years earlier.

I remember seeing an interview with W. Eugene Smith's son. His bedroom was above the darkroom and he would be kept awake by the sound of his dad weeping and screaming in frustration at 3 am.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 29, 2012

tkamiya said:
How are you guys making decisions early in the process?

I don't. Not until I see the work print.

Bob Carnie · Jun 29, 2012

I am making the bulk of my decisions in the developer, I turn the lights on only for 15 secs move on and trash the first test print. I never look backwards.

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I don't. Not until I see the work print.

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2012

Wow...

just like that mural sized paper goes to trash?

Bob Carnie · Jun 29, 2012

Why keep shite????
QUOTE=tkamiya;1361343]Wow...

just like that mural sized paper goes to trash?[/QUOTE]

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 29, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
I am making the bulk of my decisions in the developer, I turn the lights on only for 15 secs move on and trash the first test print. I never look backwards.

That's pretty much what I do too. I put the work print in the fixer, turn on the lights, look at it under a trusted light source, decide what to do, make some notes (or I forget). Then I move on to the next sheet of paper.

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2012

When it's WAY off... I do that too... like the time my paper turns pitch black in developer or very faint density building up. But as you get close, how far do you go, especially when you are working with FB? When I get within like half a stop of being right, I have to at least do a quick wash and blow dry so I can assess the change necessary.

Bob Carnie · Jun 29, 2012

1/2 stop??

I question why you need to see it dry , we all know all about dry down and if you are using a paper over and over the dry down is consistent and predictable.
I make the print exactly as I think is should look when dry and then make a slightly darker and sometimes slightly lighter . Generally I like the middle print the next day.
All dodging and burning is seen way before in the developer.

I have heard all about the microwave, letting a print dry , having a glass of wine and analyzing test strips or patches and putting patches over a print to see different tones, or even the stories about diagrams that photographers give assistants to fix parts of a print which IMHO is a bunch of totally useless bullshit...

Those are all good stories, and yes entertaining at workshops where a named photographer/printer must justify their printing styles and fees for the workshop, and humble the students with their seemingly mastery of a process, but most top end printers I have ever met, and I have met a lot here and in travels , do not hesitate, they are decisive and fast, and able to repeat their steps. I have never seen one keep a bad print other than to use as a toner test strip.

I think you are being very hard on yourself and should loosen up and stop trying to make master pieces and try making nice prints that tell the story and you are happy to hang on a wall.

tkamiya said:
When it's WAY off... I do that too... like the time my paper turns pitch black in developer or very faint density building up. But as you get close, how far do you go, especially when you are working with FB? When I get within like half a stop of being right, I have to at least do a quick wash and blow dry so I can assess the change necessary.

Anyone else feel like this?

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