Anybody buying color sheet film these days?

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
If that's happening, why is B&H running out as soon as they get in some stock of a particular emulsion?

Because B&H are probably smart enough not to order more than one or two boxes given the fact that they rarely sell any.
In my expectation, most of the stock remains at EK where it's dispatched on demand by KA.

Donald Qualls · Aug 18, 2023

koraks said:
I personally suspect that they confection sizeable batches from master rolls just as they do with roll films, then store the product in a local warehouse as well as the downstream supply chain, where due to low demand much of it goes out of date before it ever leaves the premises of Eastman Kodak and is discarded,

That would be a wasteful way to handle it, given that master rolls can be stored frozen and continue to produce good "fresh" film with two year expiration for a decade or more. Makes more sense to store the big one, and roll off what's needed as needed -- unless there's a process related reason this can't be done. In the latter case, the business decision would/should be to discontinue the product...

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
That would be a wasteful way to handle it, given that master rolls can be stored frozen and continue to produce good "fresh" film with two year expiration for a decade or more.

They could just as well freeze store the finished product. Either way, it's going to run out of spec at some point due to cosmic radiation. How long this takes depends on where they draw the line.
There's nothing about master rolls that makes them inherently more durable than packaged product. The main savings would be in terms of space, and the question is if these savings offset the cost of smaller confectioning runs.

It's again one of those things that depends on specifics that virtually nobody outside the company (and most within) knows.

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 18, 2023

koraks said:
Because B&H are probably smart enough not to order more than one or two boxes given the fact that they rarely sell any.
In my expectation, most of the stock remains at EK where it's dispatched on demand by KA.

B&H allows buyers to add purchases they want so customers are notified when stock is replenished. I can't imagine B&H shorts itself when there are buyers ready to purchase and they don't have any more in stock.. I think it's more likely that Kodak's shipments are limited for whatever reason.

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
I can't imagine B&H shorts itself when there are buyers ready to purchase

You don't know if and how often B&H misses out on a sale.
The fact that their webshop offers 'you might be interested' suggestions doesn't mean that those also result in sales. Webshop automation and procurement decisions generally move separately from each other, especially for a modestly-sized enterprise like B&H (we're not talking Amazon et al. here).

miha · Aug 18, 2023

For what it's worth B&H currently lists Ektar 100 4x5 as well as expired Ektar 100 4x5 - surprisingly the price is the same which was not the case even yesterday when they listed the expired version for 10 bucks less.

SodaAnt · Aug 18, 2023

miha said:
For what it's worth B&H currently lists Ektar 100 4x5 as well as expired Ektar 100 4x5 - surprisingly the price is the same which was not the case even yesterday when they listed the expired version for 10 bucks less.

Why would any sane person buy expired film when unexpired is available at the same price? B&H must have made a mistake in their listing for the expired stuff.

miha · Aug 18, 2023

Error on their part, obviously, however not the point of my post which was that LF film might be the only CN film nowadays that doesn't sell well.

MattKing · Aug 18, 2023

B&H have to buy from a distributor, including Keith Canham.
The distributors probably only order from Kodak Alaris when they have orders in hand.
Kodak Alaris probably only orders from Eastman Kodak when they have orders in hand.
Eastman Kodak probably only cuts and finishes (edge notches and packaging) when Kodak Alaris orders, and probably only on the next available scheduled sheet film finishing day.
Volumes are low!

faberryman · Aug 18, 2023

SodaAnt said:
Why would any sane person buy expired film when unexpired is available at the same price? B&H must have made a mistake in their listing for the expired stuff.

Some people like to shoot expired film. It is cool to shoot expired film. Every shot is a surprise. The fact that it is the same price makes it a bargain.

DREW WILEY · Aug 18, 2023

Donald, from everything I've noted recently, Kodak is actually upscaling all of their film coatings, and doing repetitive coatings of color sheet base, not just feeding off old rolls. But to be cost effective, that has to been in cycles. And it's hard to say how all these latest price hikes will affect the frequency of that, but it would be logical to infer that it will be less often. But with Fuji almost completely out of the sheet film business now, it's still realistic for Kodak to specialize in it somewhat, especially since they make their own PET base. I have no reason to worry.

Some film stocks age very slowly. It was estimated that nearly all the Tech Pan film sold in the 90's was from roll coated ten years or more beforehand. It keeps well. But color film is another story. Pro color films are tightly monitored and come with distinct batch coding on the box. It's fairly easy to see whether it's reasonably fresh or not. But that requires that the supply and demand pace itself must be carefully monitored. They want to coat enough, but not too much.

On the flip side of the coin, Fuji has gained an almost complete monopoly over RA4 paper production. So that fact should give them the incentive to keep that going strong. But there's no point to it if people stop shooting film; and they evidently are, since so much chromogenic paper is still being used, at least at a commercial lab level. Even the big expensive laser printing machines are still be made and sold; so they have a vested interest too. And being capable of taking scans from either chromes or color negs, there is a future for both. Of course, I still do it in the darkroom with an enlarger; but I'm not a commercial service on the clock.

SodaAnt · Aug 18, 2023

faberryman said:
Some people like to shoot expired film. It is cool to shoot expired film. Every shot is a surprise. The fact that it is the same price makes it a bargain.

I suppose, by some stretch, that's plausible. By analog, I've seen many eBay auctions generate a bidding war that ends up with the winner paying more for a used item than what it costs brand new.

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 18, 2023

MattKing said:
B&H have to buy from a distributor, including Keith Canham.
The distributors probably only order from Kodak Alaris when they have orders in hand.
Kodak Alaris probably only orders from Eastman Kodak when they have orders in hand.
Eastman Kodak probably only cuts and finishes (edge notches and packaging) when Kodak Alaris orders, and probably only on the next available scheduled sheet film finishing day.
Volumes are low!

If hospitals handled blood supply like that, we'd be in real trouble.

"Nurse, give a pint of A+, quick."

"Sorry Doctor. We're fresh out. Would B- three weeks old be OK?"

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
If hospitals handled blood supply like that, we'd be in real trouble.

But it's not a blood supply. It's photographic film. Nobody dies if it's sold out - temporarily or permanently.

DREW WILEY · Aug 18, 2023

But they die if they don't manufacture it according to a sensible cycle. They actually have to sell off reasonably on schedule what they make to keep the momentum going. It not like a brickyard, selling old bricks. It is, in fact, more like selling blood - drain off too much at once, out of your arm, and there might not be another opportunity. It has to be paced.
Much manufacturing is necessarily like that, but especially things of finite shelf life. Spot shortages are inevitable.

MattKing · Aug 18, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
If hospitals handled blood supply like that, we'd be in real trouble.

"Nurse, give a pint of A+, quick."

"Sorry Doctor. We're fresh out. Would B- three weeks old be OK?"

Film isn't like eggs or milk or blood.
A master roll, kept under ideal conditions, has quite good, reasonable long duration keeping properties.
Film cut to size, edge printed, notched, packaged and boxed, and then sent out into the distribution chain, to end up eventually in a photographer's inventory still offers a reasonably long term before it is likely to deteriorate, but the vagaries of circumstances mean that that duration is much shorter than the storage potential for master rolls.
Develop before dates are calculated based mostly on the date of finishing/confectioning, not the date of coating, although the pre-finishing/confectioning storage duration is relevant.

Richard Man · Aug 18, 2023

I have shot ~1500 sheets of Portra 160 for my portrait projects. It's definitely starting to hurt!

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 19, 2023

koraks said:
But it's not a blood supply. It's photographic film. Nobody dies if it's sold out - temporarily or permanently.

But if you can't get the film you like, when you need it, you may give up on film photography.

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 19, 2023

Richard Man said:
I have shot ~1500 sheets of Portra 160 for my portrait projects. It's definitely starting to hurt!

Sounds like a good investment. Good luck on your project. Tell us more about it?

koraks · Aug 19, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
But if you can't get the film you like, when you need it, you may give up on film photography.

Yes, maybe. Maybe just temporarily. We've grown accustomed to having everything we want at any given moment. Maybe it's not so bad to only have oranges when they're in season, and 4x5 Portra 400 when it's in stock.

DREW WILEY · Aug 19, 2023

I've lost favorite films and papers one after another over the decades. It's inevitable. Just adapt and move on. Something else will turn up, maybe even better.

Sirius Glass · Aug 19, 2023

"If you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you are with" Stephen Stills - Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 19, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
"If you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you are with" Stephen Stills - Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young

I wouldn't try that line on your wife or girlfriend.

thornhill · Aug 20, 2023

CineStill seems to be continuing to work towards some 4x5 sheet in their 400D emulsion. Ditto for 220.

DREW WILEY · Aug 23, 2023

More unnecessary doom and gloom. For one thing, no outfit like B&H can get the kind of pricing they need by buying small quantities of sheet film, a box or two at a time, like a small camera store might buy that from an middleman distributor at inflated cost. It has to be done in volume, on cyclic intervals. That is also the only way mfg sales reps have an incentive to keep their job, because it's mainly based on sales commission, in most cases. They have to prioritize on the relatively small number of outfits who write big purchase orders every time. I can tell. I was a professional product buyer for forty years. One really good steady account is worth more than five hundred little squeaky mouse ones, as far as the time and effort of commissioned sales reps is concerned. They gotta eat too.

Anybody buying color sheet film these days?

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