Any tips for drying 35mm negatives?

TheTrailTog · Sep 16, 2007

Okay, newbie question time again I seem to be getting a lot of curl in my negatives after they dry. I can understand the curling lengthwise as it is roll film but, the film has been bowing quite a bit widthwise. Maybe this is normal though? :confused: Here's what I have been doing:

1. Photo-Flo wash mixed to Kodak's specs
2. Quick rinse off of any suds if needed
3. Take off the reels and hang
4. Quick pass with a film squeegee to remove excess water
5. Leave hanging until completely dry

Any tips on how I can dry my film so that it stays flatter?

Thanks in advance,
Aaron

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 16, 2007

First thing, drop the squeegee. It's not useful with photo-flo, and will only augment the chances of scratching your film.

I do my final rinse in distilled water + photo flo, and then let hang in the shower. When I can, I turn the hot water a little before, just so that there is humidity in the room. If the air is too dry, it might favour curling.

If you're using Efke/Foma/etc film, there's no avoiding the curling, so just stash the negatives under a small pile of books when they are dry. Ilford/Fuji/Kodak dry very flat, and seldom curl at all.

ann · Sep 16, 2007

also, don't rinse after the use of photo -flo

TheTrailTog · Sep 16, 2007

Thanks for the tips I've been using Kodak and Ilford film mhv. The air has been pretty dry lately so I will try the shower trick. Ann, I was worried about the bubbles from the Photo-Flo. It seems like no matter what I do, it suds up on me. Is this normal?

Thanks Again

Monophoto · Sep 16, 2007

You've received two good suggestions:

1. Never squeegee film - squeegees cause scratches.
2. Rinsing after using PhotoFlo cancels the effect of the PhotoFlo. PhotoFlo reduces the surface tension of water, and the objective is to leave the film moistened by water with low surface tension as it dries. If you rinse the film, you replace the low surface tension water/PhotoFlo solution with high surface tension water that forms droplets when it dries, and those droplets leave watermarks on the film.

Here are two more:

3. In making the working PhotoFlo solution, use distilled water (I use water processed through a reverse osmosis filtration system), and use twice as much water as recommended by Kodak. Sometimes, Kodak's recommended dilution leaves a scum on film.

4. Watch the film as it dries. OK - that would be very boring, so do it intermittently, but the idea is to notice that you can see a visible change in the emulsion surface of the film as it dries. 35mm film dries from the outside edges in, and there is a distinct visible change to a smoother, matte surface. As soon as the film has dried across the entire width, take it down and cut it to the length required by your storage system, and then place the film in sleeves. The tendency to curl across the width of the film is caused by allowing the film to dry too much before sleeving it, and will be aggravated by prolonged drying, especially if heated air is used to dry the film.

TheTrailTog · Sep 16, 2007

Thanks Monophoto I've got #4 covered. The second it is done drying, they are cut into strips of 6 and put into archival sleeves. I'll definitely give #3 a shot. Maybe using a more diluted solution will help with the suds level I've been getting.

Thanks again everyone

tac · Sep 16, 2007

drying 35mm negatives

Photo-Flo is basically a weak detergent, so some foaming is normal. As a detergent, it breaks the surface tension of the water, so that it won't form beads, which can dry and leave spots on your film. If spots form on the film base, they can generally be wiped off, but spots on the emulsion generally cannot. Thus, Photo-Flo and distilled (i.e., no minerals in the water) are a double protection.
I usually give the film a few wrist-snaps after the Flo, while it's still on the reel, to get any extra foam and water off, prior to hanging.
I've never had kodak or ilford films curl on me, but would guess that it's the humidity as previously suggested. Are you attaching small weights to the film for drying? I find that one (for 35mm) or two (for 120/220) regular clothes pins are adequate.
Good Luck

TheTrailTog · Sep 16, 2007

Thanks tac I did try weights once. Didn't seem to have an effect. I think it must be from the humidity or lack there of. I have a roll of TMax to run tonight. I'll try out these suggestions and see if they help.

Thanks again everyone. You've all been a great help

removed account4 · Sep 16, 2007

one thing is not to be too generous with your photo flo.
i am almost done with a bottle i started using in the 1980s ...
a few drops in your film tank is all it takes .. take your film in reel
move it up and down, an tap the tank a handful of times to dislodge bubbles.
slowly add a tiny bit of water until the head rolls off of your tank, then hang
your film.
i usually hang it with a clothes pin top and at the bottom.

have fun + good luck!

john

Konical · Sep 16, 2007

Good Morning, Xia Ke,

I agree with the advice given above. I would especially reiterate the comments about Photo-Flo dilution. In the water I have here at least, the Kodak recommendation gives far, far too heavy a concentration. As John indicated, two or three drops in a tank for two 120 reels should suffice. My experience closely parallels John's; after starting film processing back in the early 1970's, I'm only about half way through my second small bottle of Photo-Flo. During those years, I've processed hundreds, if not thousands of batches of film.

Konical

TheTrailTog · Sep 16, 2007

Thanks John and Konical I'll definitely give a weaker dilution a shot on the Flo. I've only run about 9 rolls so far, so being very new, haven't strayed from the manufacturers guidelines/mixtures. Think it's time to start experimenting. I can't recall the exact dilution I have been using but, it's be like 5ml to a quart. I'll pick up some more distilled water on the way home and try cutting that in half.

Happy Shooting,
Aaron

Roger Hicks · Sep 16, 2007

Dear Aaron,

You can also cut photo-flow too far. I don't like to go much below half the recommended dilution. When I do, I get marks.

My current wash regime is Ilford sequence in the local hard water, followed by 2-3 min in plain distiled water. followed by 1 min in distilled water plus photo flow, and I'm getting VERY clean negs with all normal films.

This is based on 41 years experience in Bermuda, England, Scotland, California, France...

Cheers,

R.

ic-racer · Sep 16, 2007

A method that has worked for me for 20 years

Probably duplicate content, but this has worked for me for many years:

After film washing,remove film from reels.
Attach SS clips to each end (don't touch emulsion).
Make a loop of the film (long arms help) and swish it back and forth (once each way) through a container or tray with photo flo at recommended dilution wtih distilled water.
Hold negatives at an angle, for a few moments, so bubbles or anything else travels down one edge of the strip.
Hang to dry overnight in a non-heated, dedicated cabinet.
HEPA air filter is running during all this.

johnnywalker · Sep 16, 2007

I dry 35mm film two ways: hanging, with weights on the bottom, and in a tube (with the film still in their reels) with a hair dryer on fan-only (no heat) blowing through the tube. After the film is dry I cut them into six per segment and put them in sleeves. I've never noticed that the curl is worse when the film is dried in the tube with the hair dryer. Certainly the dust control is easier with the hair dryer!
Is a little bit of curl important?

TheTrailTog · Sep 17, 2007

Well, just got running a roll of TMax, 24exp. I mixed my Photo Flo about 2/3 the recommended mixture. I hung it in the bathroom, window open, and exhaust fan running. Was only about 60 - 65 degrees. I put another film hanger on the end as a weight. No rinsing or squeegee. While the film didn't roll up as much, it's still bowing from the edges of the strip towards the middle Only thing I can think of is it's gotta be something to do with the humidity levels. What do you guys think?

Aaron

sun of sand · Sep 17, 2007

A couple times when drying my film I've noticed a curling and immediately just ran some hot water
Not too long, just a bit.
That worked for me.
I hang from heavy SS magnetic clips with another on bottom

I usually rinse in Flo+distilled water and then drip the mixture down the film on both sides from the top down
I think it covers more evenly that way
just the way I do it

Fanshaw · Sep 17, 2007

Xia_Ke said:
Okay, newbie question time again I seem to be getting a lot of curl in my negatives after they dry. I can understand the curling lengthwise as it is roll film but, the film has been bowing quite a bit widthwise. Maybe this is normal though? :confused: Here's what I have been doing:

1. Photo-Flo wash mixed to Kodak's specs
2. Quick rinse off of any suds if needed
3. Take off the reels and hang
4. Quick pass with a film squeegee to remove excess water
5. Leave hanging until completely dry

Any tips on how I can dry my film so that it stays flatter?

Thanks in advance,
Aaron

You may find it difficult to avoid drying marks without using a squeegee. In my opinion this is a greater risk than the possibility of scratching the film with the squeegee. I have used one for many years and have never scratched a film.
fanshaw

Roger Hicks · Sep 17, 2007

Fanshaw said:
You may find it difficult to avoid drying marks without using a squeegee. In my opinion this is a greater risk than the possibility of scratching the film with the squeegee. I have used one for many years and have never scratched a film.
fanshaw

My own suspicion is that for most people, whichever system you AREN'T using looks better...

It's quite hard to scratch a film with a squeegee if you do it properly, but it's possible. Don't ask how, after 41 years of squeegeeing and not squeegeeing, I know this. Currently I'm not squeegeeing. That may change again, though I don't think it likely (see earlier post).

Curling is 100% humidity related, and flattens as the gelatine reaches equilibrium with the atmosphere. Quite separately from that, before I had a drying cabinet (which I use with the heater OFF for B+W film) I used always to dry my negs diagonally, pinned at the top and bottom, with an elastic band and paperclip at the bottom to take up shrinkage. I got astonishingly clean, dust-free negs in a relatively hostile environment (pinned across the kitchen door-frame).

But my current system, as described in an earlier post, is even better.

Bob F. · Sep 17, 2007

No need to agitate the film in the Photoflo, which may well cause bubbles.

I have used a squeegee in the past without a problem but with a wetting agent like Photoflo mixed with distilled water you get the best of both worlds and I no longer bother with the squeegee.

A quick scan and another tip I think not covered: if you use Photoflo with your film on the reels, wash the reels and tank out thoroughly with hot water before it dries on the reels as some people report that the Photoflo will coat the reels making it difficult to load films as it builds up. Not had that problem myself, but then I always do the rinse thing immediately after hanging the films up to dry.

Oh yes, don't open windows or use a fan - it will only blow dust on to your nice wet negatives... Hang to dry somewhere you can close the door and not let anyone else in there for a couple of hours.

Have fun, Bob.

Anscojohn · Sep 17, 2007

[ As soon as the film has dried across the entire width, take it down and cut it to the length required by your storage system, and then place the film in sleeves. The tendency to curl across the width of the film is caused by allowing the film to dry too much before sleeving it, and will be aggravated by prolonged drying, especially if heated air is used to dry the film.[/QUOTE]
******
Where this of-the-wall procedure came from I know not.

The old lab rats and photogs who taught me darkroom stressed that handling the film less than 24 hours after drying was always to be avoided if at all possible.

The wet film was hung on a line in a dust free space, with a clip on the lower end. Some of them would just leave the metal reel attached to the film, but I prefer a clip or a clothes pin.

Have yet to see a roll of film curl across the width. But with only forty years doing darkroom, I have much to learn.

John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

Harry Lime · Sep 17, 2007

Are you hanging a weight at the base of your negative? A single clothes pin should do the trick.

HL

Roger Hicks · Sep 17, 2007

Anscojohn said:
Have yet to see a roll of film curl across the width. But with only forty years doing darkroom, I have much to learn.

John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

Dear John,

Must be the extra year... I've seen it often enough in the last 41 years. Seldom serious; usually perceptible. It's why 120 has anti-curl backing, after all.

Cheers,

Roger

Fanshaw · Sep 18, 2007

I think that curling of negatives has more to do with the humidity of their current environment than any method used to dry them. Some manufacturers make films that curl fiendishly, others do not. Breathing on the negatives before use does help.

AlanC · Sep 18, 2007

Most of my 35mm films curl across their width when drying, but it is only a temporary problem. After storing them for a few days squashed flat in a sleeve in a ring binder, they flatten down.
Alan Clark

removed account4 · Sep 18, 2007

AlanC said:
Most of my 35mm films curl across their width when drying, but it is only a temporary problem. After storing them for a few days squashed flat in a sleeve in a ring binder, they flatten down.
Alan Clark

exactly!

john

Any tips for drying 35mm negatives?

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