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Any Thoughts

seawolf66

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outside bost
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Ok I had a fresh batch of ID-11 ilford developer mixed at one to one foma film negatives look good BUT why in the heck did my developer turn aquamarine in color and stop bath also had a tinge of green in it :
Like i said any thoughts : Thanks all
 
It's their anti-halation dyes.

I use Foma film a bit and never really noticed, I half assumed it was my Pyrocat HD's spent colour but thinking about it (I never normally think while processing) it does change colour depending on what film I use

By now I've processed so many films in my life I just don't notice

Ian
 
One thing I have noticed with anti-halation dyes, they disappear in alkaline solutions. Most developers are alkaline enough to turn the dye clear but not all and not some when diluted. I am in the US and I drill into my students 'Do Not Pre-Soak the Film' Save one or two unusual brands most film data sheets do not include a pre-soak.
 

Amen to that!
 
Leighgion said:
Yep, that's the anti-halation layer. Do a pre-rinse before developer goes in and it'll mostly all wash out.
Click to expand...

As Ian says, why? It does no harm, and it will wash out with all the subsequent liquid processing anyway. So, why?
 
RalphLambrecht said:
As Ian says, why? It does no harm, and it will wash out with all the subsequent liquid processing anyway. So, why?
Click to expand...

All I said is that the anti-halation dye will mostly all come out in a pre-rinse and two posters ask me what reason there is for pre-rinsing.

Is there some kind of sensitive political issue about pre-rinse I'm not aware of?
 
Leighgion said:
All I said is that the anti-halation dye will mostly all come out in a pre-rinse and two posters ask me what reason there is for pre-rinsing.

Is there some kind of sensitive political issue about pre-rinse I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...

Oh yes, this is similar to religion!
Pre-soak is a sensitive issue around here with a button the size of Lower Manhattan, and you TOUCHED it! Didn't you hear the bomb go off?

On a more serious note. Sorry, for jumping all over you, and you're right, the (forbidden or must-have, depending what camp you belong to) pre-soak will wash the anti-halation dye out (most of it anyway). But, so will the developer, stop, washing aid, wash, rinse... you name it.
 
thanks folks for such fast reply's , I am from the school of Load the film and develope the film anf stop bath it and fix it : and of course wash it : Thats all she wrote!
thanks for telling me its only the anti-halation dye : Have a good day as soon as I can get the film scaned I will fotos from rolfix camera 4.5x6 negative and from the Nagel Lirbette 74 6x9 negatives :
 
Ian Grant said:
Why do a pre-rinse ?

The use of a pre-rinse seems more common in the US, I haven't known anyone using one in the UK.

Ian
Click to expand...

I do not prerinse except if the film or the developer specify to do it in the instructions.

Ralph is on the money.

Must not take sides in prerinse flame wars!
Must not take sides in prerinse flame wars!
Must not take sides in prerinse flame wars!
Must not take sides in prerinse flame wars!
Must not take sides in prerinse flame wars!

Steve
 

I'll have to mind what I say in public about pre-soak from now on. Don't want to be gassed and wake up on the Island with a number pinned to me.
 
The only reason I do not prerinse film is simple, I always believed not to waste water
 
RalphLambrecht said:
Oh yes, this is similar to religion!
Pre-soak is a sensitive issue around here with a button the size of Lower Manhattan, and you TOUCHED it! Didn't you hear the bomb go off?
Click to expand...

The only bomb that went off was in your yard, Ralph
 
Ian Grant said:
Why do a pre-rinse ?

The use of a pre-rinse seems more common in the US, I haven't known anyone using one in the UK.

Ian
Click to expand...

I pre-soak my films to reduce the chance of air-bubbles sticking to the film and to get the tank to processing temperature. AFAIK, the dyes aren't the main reason for pre-soaking.

*darfc*
 
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Presoak - I never used it (going on 50 years now), but lately I do more semi stand development in Rodinal (agitate every 4 minutes). I believe presoak was recommended by Sandy King for stand and semistand with Pyrocat, and so I do also with Rodinal, for initial chem contact.
Unnecessary?
 

Just remember that a pre-soak will change the development time. Without pre-soak development is slightly faster! A film development test should be done according to the entire intended process, without later modifications.
 

Strangely Agfa stated that it was best not to use a pre-soak for the same reasons, 100 years ago

My take is it's six of one half a dozen of the other, I don't like a pre-soak but that doesn't mean it's wrong, I've found no need for one except for colour work & XP-1/2.

Ian
 
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Thoughts? I have no thoughts. My ex cut off my thoughts years ago and I've been waiting for them to grow back since the divorce.
 

Considering that most film manufacturers (like Ilford) have instruction sheets that contain instructions and processing times, one should follow those instructions. If they call for a pre-rinse then pre-rinse, if they don't then don't. Simple, and one does not have to take sides in this. I use mostly Ilford films, they don't recommend it, Kodak doesn't either, so I never do....
 

The pre-soak has a few potential benefits:

1. Since pre-soaking lengthens the development time, and short development times (<4 min) can cause uneven development, pre-soaking can provide a more even development with short development times.
2. Temperature conditioning for tank, spool and film.

but it also has a few potential dangers or disadvantages:

1. Pre-soaking must be long enough (several minutes) or it can cause uneven development. The reason for this is again that pre-soaked emulsions need longer development times. If pre-soaking was not full and entirely even, development won't be either. You can test this by putting a drop of water on the dry film for a minute or two. After development, you will clearly see where that drop of water had been. The area will be slightly less developed than the rest of the film.

2. Pre-soaking adds a step to the process and extends the processing time. With sufficiently long enough development times, this is unnecessary.

and there are also a few myths:

1. Pre-soaking washes the anti-halation dye out of the emulsion and this improves development!

As far as I know, the anti-halation dye does no harm to the development process. Conversely, the pre-soak might wash out some built-in development agents, helpful and intended to be there for the process, in which case, pre-soaking becomes a disadvantage.

In conclusion my recommendation is:

1. Only pre-soak if the film manufacturer recommends it, or if your development process pushes you below 4 minutes.
2. If you pre-soak, do it for at least 3-5 minutes or you'll risk uneven development.
3. If you want to pre-soak, don't forget to add it also to your film development test, because the development time lengthens with the pre-soak.
 
When I first started tray developing 2x3 and 4x5 sheets I was getting uneven development with Efke and Trix 320. My mentor at the time suggested a sodium meta-borate presoak and that cleared up my eneven development problems.

Bottom line,
test,
observe,
arrive at a conclusion and then do what works for YOU and your processes.

I find it does more harm than good to blindly go by what others say on the internet.
 

Bruce

We were talking about a water pre-soak.

I'm a big fan of testing custom conditions. Often a simple test give more insight than a week of internet discussion. However, not everything depends on the custom setup. A too short and uneven pre-soak will produce uneven development in every darkroom.

What is long enough? Do I really need this extra step?
That you have to test for.

By the way, I never heard of a sodium meta-borate presoak, and if I tried it now, I would blindly go by what others say on the internet. But, it sound like an idea worth trying. That's what APUG is all about. You can benefit from the experience of others.
 
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