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Any labs that will pull C-41 more than one stop?

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Garb

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attic darkroom on YouTube obtained a nice look with Harman Phoenix by pulling it three stops. I would be happy pulling two stops, but currently don't have the resources (time, space, equipment, ability to discard chemicals, experience) to develop C-41 myself.

Does anyone know any labs that can pull C-41 film two stops, and take mail-in orders? (Or if not taking mail-in orders, are located in Osaka, Tokyo, or New York City).

Searching around, most labs either do not offer pull processing at all for C-41, or only can pull 1 stop.
 

albireo

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Can't help I'm afraid but out of curiosity, what qualities does Phoenix gain with such an extreme amount of exposure+dev manipulation?

Are you planning on shooting the entire roll on a tripod, given the likely slow speeds you'll end up needing to use that film at EI 25 or thereabouts? Or perhaps with a bright prime shot wide open?

Thanks
 
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Garb

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A two-stop pull is EI 50, which can be comfortably shot hand-held in bright daylight conditions.
 

MattKing

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Is it pull processing, or is it two stops over-exposure accompanied by pull processing?
"pull" and "push" really only refer to the change in processing.
 
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Garb

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If it's just a change in processing, then does the lab really care if I overexposed it or not? Whether or not they can pull the film two stops, I would think that is independent of what EI I shot the film at.

Anyway, I was planning on shooting Harman Phoenix at EI 50 and then asking the lab to pull two stops.
 

MattKing

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If it's just a change in processing, then does the lab really care if I overexposed it or not? Whether or not they can pull the film two stops, I would think that is independent of what EI I shot the film at.

Anyway, I was planning on shooting Harman Phoenix at EI 50 and then asking the lab to pull two stops.

The lab's process is independent of your exposure decisions.
But as the discussion seems to have wandered into the results you are obtaining and your reasons for asking for a change in the process, then for that part of the discussion it would be helpful to know what combination of exposure adjustment and revised processing you are seeking to employ.
 
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Garb

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So the objective is basically to tame contrast and grain. And it's hard to quantify but the 1-stop-pull and 3-stop-pull looks that I've seen online is somehow pleasing to me.

There's also a secondary objective that I'm going for which I'm not sure is even valid, and this is less important that the contrast and grain to me, but I have a bunch of rolls of Phoneix that will not have a chance to shoot in the near future nor do I have freezer space for them. I'm hoping at EI 50, the effects of aging will be less pronounced. But I don't know how this works when pulling is added into the mix.
 

koraks

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I wouldn't fuss about the pull processing. Just expose for the shadow detail you need, then manage contrast and color in digital editing. If you're relying on lab scans made with something like a Frontier, then that's the issue. Not the film processing as such.
 

loccdor

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Just expose for the shadow detail you need, then manage contrast and color in digital editing.

While that would work for typical color negative I don't think Phoenix has the latitude for that. However I'm also unsure of how much extra brightness range it could handle with pull processing. I've done reversal with it at EI 12-16 and that didn't give it any more latitude, but that's a different thing.
 

loccdor

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I'd be happy to pull process your rolls sent to and from a New York address in an Arista C-41 kit, for a price comparable to a normal lab. Hand tank so I can only handle a moderate volume. Message me if interested.
 

koraks

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While that would work for typical color negative I don't think Phoenix has the latitude for that
I'm not sure if the exposure latitude of the film is not necessarily the problem, and if it is, whether it helps much to start by overexposing it by two stops.
This film does develop to a high contrast, which means that it should really be scanned as if it's a positive film. The contrast van then be reeled back in digitally. I would personally not cut back development too much since the shadows will also suffer and this is already a weak point. Maybe reduce development by 20% or so and expose for important shadows.

Ultimately I have my doubts about trying to make Phoenix look like something it isn't; if normal contrast and fine grain are desired, I'd just start with a film that gives those, which is basically any normal C41 film.
 

loccdor

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Ultimately I have my doubts about trying to make Phoenix look like something it isn't; if normal contrast and fine grain are desired, I'd just start with a film that gives those, which is basically any normal C41 film.

Agreed.
 

albireo

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"pull" and "push" really only refer to the change in processing.

The problem with the definition you refer to is that pull ends up being another word for 'underdevelop' and push for 'overdevelop'.

I'm not too familiar with your definition above, and I wonder if there is a cis-/trans-Atlantic difference at play here, or perhaps generational differences, but I've always interpreted 'pushing' and 'pulling' as a creative workflow starting squarely at exposure time.

E.g. 'I push my roll of HP5+ to 1600' => I decide to underexpose HP5, and then overdevelop it, to 'push' it to perform like a 1600 ISO film (we know it won't, but that's what the 'push' parlance is mostly referring too in 2025).

Think of the CPU overclocking analogy: you push a CPU to operate at a frequency beyond its 'tested safe' and approved factory specs. It can work, but there will be risks.
 
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MattKing

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The "pull" and "push" terms came only from the lab world and referred only to adjustments of development.
They were more recently appropriated by photographers who wanted to use them for descriptions of the combinations of exposure and development adjustments - typically "push" adjustments used to compensate for low light levels.
Historically, you would request a "pull" development from a lab because you had exposed a traditional, thick emulsion film to a scene with a wide SLR (Subject Luminance Range) and you sought to contract the resulting density range on the film, and thus the overall "contrast" of the negative. In Zone System terms, you requested "contraction" (N-1, N-2, etc.) development.
With some films and some nominal characteristic curves, you needed to increase shadow exposure a bit to make that work.
On the other side of the coin:
Historically, you would request a "push" development from a lab because you had exposed a traditional, thick emulsion film to a scene with a narrow SLR (Subject Luminance Range) and you sought to expand the resulting density range on the film, and thus the overall "contrast" of the negative. In Zone System terms, you requested "expansion" (N +1, N +2, etc.) development.
With some films and some nominal characteristic curves, you needed to decrease shadow exposure a bit to make that work.

Both expansion and contraction tended to affect how grainy the results were, so the size of the negative mattered.

Some people still approach it that way - use the adjustments to control the density range , and thus the overall "contrast" of the negative, and in response make any exposure adjustments to match. With most modern, thinner emulsion films, and with the smaller formats that most use now, the opportunities for using expansion and contraction tools are more limited than they once were.
In modern times though, most seem to reverse the approach - make the exposure choice first, and then see if changing the development can help with any problems. And then they frustrate the old lab operator in me by changing the terms!

If I understand it correctly - and my earlier question was intended to confirm that understanding - with this thread @Garb is essentially trying to use a contraction approach with Harman Phoenix in order to tame some of its contrast peculiarities. In which case it would be useful to learn what, if any, exposure choices he/she has made as well to take into account the resulting changes - if any - in the light sensitivity of the "pull" developed film..
But if my understanding is incorrect, and @Garb instead hopes to use a "pull" development to compensate for over-exposure instead, then the discussion is probably different.
 

albireo

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The "pull" and "push" terms came only from the lab world and referred only to adjustments of development.
They were more recently appropriated by photographers who wanted to use them for descriptions of the combinations of exposure and development adjustments - typically "push" adjustments used to compensate for low light levels.
Historically, you would request a "pull" development from a lab because you had exposed a traditional, thick emulsion film to a scene with a wide SLR (Subject Luminance Range) and you sought to contract the resulting density range on the film, and thus the overall "contrast" of the negative. In Zone System terms, you requested "contraction" (N-1, N-2, etc.) development.
With some films and some nominal characteristic curves, you needed to increase shadow exposure a bit to make that work.
On the other side of the coin:
Historically, you would request a "push" development from a lab because you had exposed a traditional, thick emulsion film to a scene with a narrow SLR (Subject Luminance Range) and you sought to expand the resulting density range on the film, and thus the overall "contrast" of the negative. In Zone System terms, you requested "expansion" (N +1, N +2, etc.) development.
With some films and some nominal characteristic curves, you needed to decrease shadow exposure a bit to make that work.

I am familiar with the ideas of contraction and expansion and with the theory behind the Zone System, as you know Matt.

All I was trying to suggest is that the decision to have a film pulled or pushed by you pros in the lab would have probably been made by the photographer relying on your services long before they'd hand you the bag of rolls (unless of course it wasn't a conscious decision but a mistake "damn..I set the ISO dial to 1600...can I still get usable images? Let's ask Matt to push this roll for me!").

So it makes sense that with the demise of the high street 1h processing lab and the huge National Geographic-style Pro processing labs alike, but with the relative resurgence of amateur film photography and film camera use, this "pulling" and "pushing" terminology would stay, but shift in semantics to something happening earlier in the workflow, IMO.
 
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koraks

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If you just distinguish between "pushing/pulling the film" as such and "push/pull processing", the problem goes away.
Push/pull film: under-/overexpose followed by over-/underdevelop (push & pull used as verbs)
Push/pull process: give more/less development than normal (push & pull used as adverbs)
This list might be extended with 'push/pull exposure', which would be under/overexposure.

I think after having this argument on semantics played out (too) many times between people talking from different perspectives (someone who used to work at a lab, someone more focused on the integral process, someone handing off their film to a lab etc.), it seems all but sensible to me to just agree on some terminology to account for the different views.

Or we could fill a couple more threads with it, of course. After all, we're still not done with the "stop bath, yay or nay" issue either.
 

albireo

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If you just distinguish between "pushing/pulling the film" as such and "push/pull processing", the problem goes away.
Push/pull film: under-/overexpose followed by over-/underdevelop (push & pull used as verbs)
Push/pull process: give more/less development than normal (push & pull used as adverbs)
This list might be extended with 'push/pull exposure', which would be under/overexposure.

I think after having this argument on semantics played out (too) many times between people talking from different perspectives (someone who used to work at a lab, someone more focused on the integral process, someone handing off their film to a lab etc.), it seems all but sensible to me to just agree on some terminology to account for the different views.

Or we could fill a couple more threads with it, of course. After all, we're still not done with the "stop bath, yay or nay" issue either.

Nicely put, @koraks !
 

photogear

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A very little remark (hopefully useful).
In terms of pushing one's film in a lab, I have been told lately that it is possible. So that means the C-41 processing can last longer than the usual time while developping. But on the other hand the tech told me the transparent plastic base gets apparently darker...
Using quite often expired film, of course, I manage to go 2 or 3 stops longer, especially with fast film and especially colors. I never asked for a long C-41 processing yet.
Here and old Walgreens color film 400 shot at 200. A little photoshop to intensify colors.
 

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Aidan Sciortino

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attic darkroom on YouTube obtained a nice look with Harman Phoenix by pulling it three stops. I would be happy pulling two stops, but currently don't have the resources (time, space, equipment, ability to discard chemicals, experience) to develop C-41 myself.

Does anyone know any labs that can pull C-41 film two stops, and take mail-in orders? (Or if not taking mail-in orders, are located in Osaka, Tokyo, or New York City).

Searching around, most labs either do not offer pull processing at all for C-41, or only can pull 1 stop.

Back to the question, Edgar Praus in Rochester NY will pull two stops. He does a lot of mail order volume and does excellent work. I’ve been taking film to him for 6 years now, and while I’ve tried other labs (especially while living in Los Angeles), mailing film to him has always gotten me my best results.

His site is http://4photolab.com
 

photogear

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I have a very much reliable lab that does +2 and +3 stops C-41 development. The lab also manages to use the postal service as long as the customer is willing to pay the delivery cost.
Here's the lab name, address and phone number if needed:

BOREALIS
6265 boulevard St-Laurent
Montréal (Québec) Canada H2S 3C2
(514) 844-0061
website: https://borealislab.qc.ca/
borealis@borealislab.qc.ca
 
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