Ansel Adams Question??

Jon Richardson · Sep 20, 2020

So... I have a question that will reveal my lack of knowledge but hey that’s what I’m here for, right?

I’m trying to understand Ansel Adam’s zone system and getting slightly confused. I just want some clarification... so if his system says a pale completed white person’s skin tone should be more or less around 7... does that mean it is a 7 regardless of the lighting situation? So it’s still a 7 if the subject is outside on a sunny day... or sitting by a campfire, or giving a speech under stage lights? If it changes per lighting condition what is the point of the system?

I know I’m probably missing something so someone please clue me in. Thanks so much!

radiant · Sep 20, 2020

Zone system talks about tones on how viewer percieves them. It is not proportional to any real life value such as luminosity.

Point of the zone system is to get all wanted tones to fall on "correct places". Using skin tone can be one way to do it. It can also be shadows or highlights to you want to keep.

juan · Sep 20, 2020

I though Adams said Zone VI for that, but maybe I don’t remember correctly. Basically, the answer to your question is yes. You want the same negative density for skin tone (or whatever else you’re going to base exposure on.)
Now, artistically that can vary, but learn the basics first - then variations.

Alan9940 · Sep 20, 2020

juan said:
I though Adams said Zone VI for that, but maybe I don’t remember correctly. Basically, the answer to your question is yes. You want the same negative density for skin tone (or whatever else you’re going to base exposure on.)
Now, artistically that can vary, but learn the basics first - then variations.

That's correct. Zone VI is the proper placement for Caucasian skin, per Adams and many other practitioners of the Zone system. But, any tone can be interpreted however the photographer wishes. Juan give great advice...learn the basics and you'll have a firm foundation for making artistic choices.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 20, 2020

I'm still confused. If you're at a campfire, would you use the same zone as you would in broad daylight for Caucasian skin? If not, how do you determine what zone to put it in if it varies depending on the light quality?

radiant · Sep 20, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
I'm still confused. If you're at a campfire, would you use the same zone as you would in broad daylight for Caucasian skin? If not, how do you determine what zone to put it in if it varies depending on the light quality?

I explained that in my first post. More direct answer: you expose more than you would in daylight to end up in same tone.

Juan also described this; you want the same certain density on negative for skin. If you have less light, you need to expose more to get the wanted density.

Zone system is TONE management system, not exposure management. Film has certain range in tonality and by zone system you can efficiently use the full film tonal range.

ProfessorC1983 · Sep 20, 2020

Sounds like perhaps you may be confusing Zone with Exposure Value? The EV will of course change drastically based on the lighting conditions, which is why you meter each scene and decide to "place" a given EV on a Zone (typically placing Zone III for shadow detail) and the others "fall" naturally across the exposure range. Remember of course that the meter will always show the middle gray or Zone V placement and so you add or subtract stops to place the value accordingly.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 20, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
I'm still confused. If you're at a campfire, would you use the same zone as you would in broad daylight for Caucasian skin? If not, how do you determine what zone to put it in if it varies depending on the light quality?

Yep, same Zone, but I'd need a different exposure to get that density on the negative. You decide what Zone you want a value on depending on your visualization, then you use your trusty spotmeter to find the proper exposure you need to get that Zone rendered correctly on the negative.

Note that the Zone you choose to place something in does NOT vary with the "light quality."

The placement is determined by your visualization; it's the exposure for that varies with the illumination. EZPZ

Doremus

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 20, 2020

The zone system allows you to place a specific tone on whatever zone you want. Place it on VI, and you'll end up with a density that should give you a zone VI on the print...providing you've done all your testing first. Now, when you place something on zone VI, you have to check and see where the other tones "fall"...especially your dark shadows.
If there is a bright spot on the subjects forehead, I would see where that falls, too. You might have to curtail your development time (N minus), so that bright spot prints with some detail. At least in most cases, you can move your subject into a more favourable lighting situation.

Jon Richardson · Sep 20, 2020

juan said:
I though Adams said Zone VI for that, but maybe I don’t remember correctly. Basically, the answer to your question is yes. You want the same negative density for skin tone (or whatever else you’re going to base exposure on.)
Now, artistically that can vary, but learn the basics first - then variations.

Thanks everyone! I’m still trying to understand though... I use a grey card typically to get my exposure more or less in the right range while getting my footage... what I’m mostly asking about is after the fact when I’m color correcting (strong artistic choices set aside) should I mostly shift my subjects skin tones to roughly where Ansel Adam’s suggests regardless of if it’s meant to be a dim room with a candle lit face or a bright sunny day? If so, that’s fascinating! What is it that gives it a darker feel if the actual face is the same point in the zone?

jvo · Sep 20, 2020

my way... i use an incident light meter reading whether it be a camp fire or bright sun. given the reading (amount of light), the subject tone (white skin), i then choose the zone (shutter speed and f-stop) that will expose the skin tone properly on zone vi, given the amount of light.

p.s. you can get into all the variants of the process after you get a handle on properly exposing your subject. the zone system for me is key to doing that.

have fun, and keep asking.

Paul Howell · Sep 20, 2020

Over the past 60 years the zone system has been modified by various folks, some modifications such as Minor White using 9 rather than 10 zones while Phil David reduced the number to 7 and advocated the use of a incident meter. The basic are the same, expose for the shadows (zone III or II depending on who you read) and expose for the highlights, the Zone and Beyond the Zone are largely dependent on using sheet film so each negative can be developed to match the visualization of the photographer. It is expected that the photographer had tested his/her film and developer to reach a given density for Zone V in open shade. Caucasian skin tone is typically placed in Zone VI, white a very pale skin tone might be placed in zone VII. In theory if you are using an incident meter is good light, meaning open light, not broken by uneven shadows, skin tone should be rendered correctly with having to adjust for Z VI.

I took a summer workshop with Minor White in the 60s, and what I have observed over the decades is that many folks miss the most important element of the Zone System, visualization. Skin tone in Zone VI should not be a given, how do you see or visualize the person skin tone in black and white?

MattKing · Sep 20, 2020

Paul Howell said:
The basic are the same, expose for the shadows (zone III or II depending on who you read) and expose for the highlights

I think Paul meant to say "develop for the highlights" here.
But more generally, when Ansel Adams suggested that Zone 7 is a good place for Caucasian skin, he was trying to help you visualize a result that will most likely be satisfying to you. And behind that advice there are a few assumptions - things like "Caucasian skin when it is fully illuminated in a scene with a normal distribution of light and tones".
Perhaps the most valuable part of the Zone system is the visualization (or if you are a Minor White devotee, pre-visualization) part.
When people start out with the Zone system, sometimes they think that things are supposed to come out a certain way. But that really isn't accurate. A Zone System practitioner is seeking control over how things come out, and the Zone System is a tool to that end.
But the Zone System can't make the impossible happen. To understand and exploit its strengths, it is important to have a good internal reference for how different things look when incorporated in a photograph, and how the adjustments available to you can change that look. In order to build that internal reference, you need to have some experience - either earned directly yourself or picked up vicariously by, among other things, reading suggestions from someone like Ansel Adams.
You can place those Caucasian skin tones on whatever Zone serves your purpose. Other tones will fall on other Zones accordingly, and you need to be able to visualize that. If you need to adjust how those other tones fall, the development controls available to you can help.

beemermark · Sep 20, 2020

If you measure the light falling on the persons skin you would place it in Zone VI (or 7) to get the skin to look natural. It doesn't matter the source of the light. Now if the light is from a campfire (and the people are sitting around the campfire) you might want to move it to a different zone depending if you want the person face to be in the shadows or highlighted by the fire. The Zone system is about what is the correct setting but the photographer determining were the highlights & shadows fall and the importance of those different Zones. I'd suggest you pick up his 3 volume work and study it carefully.

Jon Richardson · Sep 20, 2020

MattKing said:
I think Paul meant to say "develop for the highlights" here.
But more generally, when Ansel Adams suggested that Zone 7 is a good place for Caucasian skin, he was trying to help you visualize a result that will most likely be satisfying to you. And behind that advice there are a few assumptions - things like "Caucasian skin when it is fully illuminated in a scene with a normal distribution of light and tones".
Perhaps the most valuable part of the Zone system is the visualization (or if you are a Minor White devotee, pre-visualization) part.
When people start out with the Zone system, sometimes they think that things are supposed to come out a certain way. But that really isn't accurate. A Zone System practitioner is seeking control over how things come out, and the Zone System is a tool to that end.
But the Zone System can't make the impossible happen. To understand and exploit its strengths, it is important to have a good internal reference for how different things look when incorporated in a photograph, and how the adjustments available to you can change that look. In order to build that internal reference, you need to have some experience - either earned directly yourself or picked up vicariously by, among other things, reading suggestions from someone like Ansel Adams.
You can place those Caucasian skin tones on whatever Zone serves your purpose. Other tones will fall on other Zones accordingly, and you need to be able to visualize that. If you need to adjust how those other tones fall, the development controls available to you can help.

beemermark said:
If you measure the light falling on the persons skin you would place it in Zone VI (or 7) to get the skin to look natural. It doesn't matter the source of the light. Now if the light is from a campfire (and the people are sitting around the campfire) you might want to move it to a different zone depending if you want the person face to be in the shadows or highlighted by the fire. The Zone system is about what is the correct setting but the photographer determining were the highlights & shadows fall and the importance of those different Zones. I'd suggest you pick up his 3 volume work and study it carefully.

I see so the zone system only applies to the parts of skin, etc. that fall directly under the light source. So if lighting was somewhat blotchy I would expose the part of the face with the most light hitting it to be 6 (or 7) for white skin. The rest would fall under. Am I on the right track?

MattKing · Sep 21, 2020

Jon Richardson said:
I see so the zone system only applies to the parts of skin, etc. that fall directly under the light source. So if lighting was somewhat blotchy I would expose the part of the face with the most light hitting it to be 6 (or 7) for white skin. The rest would fall under. Am I on the right track?

Most scenes have several light sources.
You need to look at the subject and then visualize how you want the various parts of the subject to appear in the print.
If you want a particular part of the scene to appear as a Zone VII highlight, you need to measure the light reflecting off that part and choose the exposure that will give that tone in the print.
You will most likely also want to measure how much light is reflecting off other parts of the subject. Assuming you use the exposure that will give you your chosen Zone VII for one part, your other measurements will tell you what Zones the other parts of the subject will fall into.
If you don't like where the other parts fall, your choices are:
1) change which Zone you placed the first part of the subject in (the face lit by the campfire is a good example - you may decide it would be better in Zone VI or Zone V);
2) adjust development - using expansion or contraction - to cause other parts of the subject to fall into other Zones; or
3) supplement or modify the light (such as with reflectors, or flash, or screens) to adjust how different parts of the subject are illuminated; or
4) leave and come back later when the light is better.

Deleted member 88956 · Sep 21, 2020

MattKing said:
I think Paul meant to say "develop for the highlights" here.
But more generally, when Ansel Adams suggested that Zone 7 is a good place for Caucasian skin, he was trying to help you visualize a result that will most likely be satisfying to you. And behind that advice there are a few assumptions - things like "Caucasian skin when it is fully illuminated in a scene with a normal distribution of light and tones".
Perhaps the most valuable part of the Zone system is the visualization (or if you are a Minor White devotee, pre-visualization) part.
When people start out with the Zone system, sometimes they think that things are supposed to come out a certain way. But that really isn't accurate. A Zone System practitioner is seeking control over how things come out, and the Zone System is a tool to that end.
But the Zone System can't make the impossible happen. To understand and exploit its strengths, it is important to have a good internal reference for how different things look when incorporated in a photograph, and how the adjustments available to you can change that look. In order to build that internal reference, you need to have some experience - either earned directly yourself or picked up vicariously by, among other things, reading suggestions from someone like Ansel Adams.
You can place those Caucasian skin tones on whatever Zone serves your purpose. Other tones will fall on other Zones accordingly, and you need to be able to visualize that. If you need to adjust how those other tones fall, the development controls available to you can help.

This is exactly the cream of ZS.

Deleted member 88956 · Sep 21, 2020

As for books at this level on ZS, I'd suggest John Schaefer "An Ansel Adams Guide - Basic Techniques of Photography" which has one of the quickest guides to ZS. At the same time ZS has not a lot of theoretical depth anyways and can be summarized in just a few pages. While there are long books on the subject, they hardly help beyond basic points except perhaps show more examples of what can happen. Majority of ZS texts cover exposure and development which are covered in depth in non-ZS pubs as virtually none of that part is any different. But key to ZS teachings is the correlation between scene, light, a final-look idea, filtering, exposure and development.

Hardest and most time consuming part of ZS application is getting tones in the end where they were envisioned to be. And often enough, what one gets is just that only to then realize it was a wrong call to begin with. Then you burn and dodge and get what looks right, and adjust the next time around before a shot is taken.

Quality of light affects tone far beyond simple light strength adjustment. Same surface reflects different type of light in a different way, thus in order to render same surface in a same way under different light takes practice, only then to prove, that under different light the mood of scene is so different, that trying to get same tone was a wrong approach. The question in the end is ... was it really worth it to procrastinate over the minute nuances ?

ZS was devised to help create. Following often seen ZS advice to the letter often does the exact opposite.

BrianShaw · Sep 21, 2020

Witold said:
And often enough, what one gets is just that only to then realize it was a wrong call to begin with.

BrianShaw · Sep 21, 2020

Witold said:
ZS was devised to help create. Following often seen ZS advice to the letter often does the exact opposite.

Vaughn · Sep 21, 2020

I use Zone 6 as an average 'Caucasian' skin tone. Zone 7 would just be for Swedes after winter.

Sirius Glass · Sep 21, 2020

jvo said:
my way... i use an incident light meter reading whether it be a camp fire or bright sun. given the reading (amount of light), the subject tone (white skin), i then choose the zone (shutter speed and f-stop) that will expose the skin tone properly on zone vi, given the amount of light.

p.s. you can get into all the variants of the process after you get a handle on properly exposing your subject. the zone system for me is key to doing that.

have fun, and keep asking.

Yes, for light on light and dark on dark, mostly light and mostly dark, I have found that the incident light meter is the best tool for the job. For example when skiing, using a reflective light meter one will get the wonder shape and texture of the moguls and everything else silhouetted or almost black.

jvo · Sep 21, 2020

i'm generally a fan of the ralph gibson (among others) school of producing a negative - graphic and black!

Doremus Scudder · Sep 21, 2020

@OP

The Zone System is a powerful tool, but requires a bit of study and, most importantly, a thorough understanding of the principles and techniques before you can effectively apply them. I think that at this point you should be more in the learning phase and not the application phase. Read up on the Zone System. There are many online sources, but none better than Ansel Adams books, The Negative and The Print, which are available somewhere for a really cheap download. There are numerous other resources as well.

Diving into the deep end of the pool before learning to swim is inadvisable. You flounder around way to much during the learning process

Best,

Doremus

bdial · Sep 21, 2020

For reading, I would recommend reading Fred Picker’s Zone VI Workshop first, then the Ansel Adams books.

Ansel Adams Question??

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