Ansco Flemish Toner

Hello,

I have an old bottle of this (glass with painted label). Is it any different than selenium toner? The description and instructions on the bottle sound near identical to those on KRST, and the bottle states that is contains sodium selenite.

I have this, plus two old quart bottles and two old half pint bottles of KRST. The bottles are all glass with paper labels. I am assuming this stuff keeps forever. Am I correct?

Thank you.

Ansco Flemish Toner is discussed in Anschell, "The Darkroom Cookbook," second edition. It was a bleach-redevelop type selenium toner that gave quite intense tones on the papers of that day. Anschell gives the formula as:

Bleach:
Potassium ferricyanide 30 g
Potassium bromide 30 g
Water to make 1 l

Use bleach full strength

Redeveloper
Sodium sulfide 40 g
Selenium powder 1 g
Water to make 1 l

Dilute redeveloper 1 + 10 for use.

A similar product was Dassonville T-56:

Dassonville T-56 Bleach and Redevelop Selenium Toner
Produces rich plum-purple to brown tones.

Bleach
Potassium ferricyanide 100 g
Potassium bromide 100 g
Water to make 1 l
For use, dilute 1+9.

Redeveloper
Water (52C) 100 ml
Sodium sulfide 25 g
Selenium (powder) 5 g

Add sodium sulfide to warm water and dissolve. Add selenium slowly, and heat until it dissolves. Allow mixture to cool.
For use, dilute 1+20. Tone prints 3 to 5 minutes with continuous agitation, then wash for 30 minutes. If the whites stain, add a few drops of ammonia to the redeveloper. If stains persist, pass the prints through one or more baths of 1% sodium sulfite.

nworth said:

Ansco Flemish Toner is discussed in Anschell, "The Darkroom Cookbook," second edition.

Click to expand...

Do you know if this is supposed to be THE formula or a substitute/workalike formula?

Thanks for the info. I will definitely try that some day.

However, this is not that. This may be a pre-prepared liquid concentrate version of the redeveloper, but bleaching is not part of the instructions. This comes in a bottle of liquid concentrate, and the instructions mention nothing about bleaching. The instructions are remarkably like KRST.

The actual product name is "Liquid Flemish Toner 8 oz. 237 cc concentrated solution."

The directions are:

"Ansco Flemish Toner produces beautiful red-brown tones on such inherently warm-toned papers as Ardura, Lustrex, Cykora and Indiatone. Not recommended for toning bromide papers.

"Expose and develop prints in the usual manner; Fix and wash thoroughly. Dilute 1 part toner with 3 parts water and use at 68F (20C). When fresh, this solution tones to completion in 30 to 60 seconds - Prints may be toned longer without harm. Agitate prints while toning. About 100 8x10" prints can be toned in a quart of working solution before toning time reaches 4 minutes per print. Higher dilution up to 1 to 7 may be used. This lengthens toning time in fresh soluiton to approximately 1-1/2 minutes.

"After toning, wash prints thoroughly for 30 minutes and dry.

"Contains sodium selenite
Keep out of reach of children
Do not swallow concentrated solution. [ I guess swallowing working solution is ok] Avoid contact of concentrated solution with skin, eyes, and clothing. For eyes or if swallowed, get medical attention."

Price tag: "Heald and Robinson, Monrovia, CA, $1.15, 3B-AA"

If this is just a pre-made liquid concentrate version of the redeveloper, and the instructions simply skip the bleach step, it raises a question in my head: Can one bleach prior to selenium toning?

2F/2F said:

...If this is just a pre-made liquid concentrate version of the redeveloper, and the instructions simply skip the bleach step, it raises a question in my head: Can one bleach prior to selenium toning?

Click to expand...

As in bleach, then dip in KRST?

If that's what you mean, then no. KRST has ammonium thiosulfate which is the active ingredient in rapid fixers. You'll get some staining, but bleached parts will be mostly fixed, so lost.

I don't have an original Ansco source for their Flemish Toner Formula although it's mention in all three books of Ansco/GAF formulae I have as commercially available, but the re-developer is Agfa (Germany) 516 it's in two of my German Agfa Rezepte books, however it should be:

Agfa 516

Water 100 ml
Sodium sulphide 40 g
Selenium powder 1 g

Dilute redeveloper 1 + 30 for use.

Agfa list a choice of 4 different ferricyanide bleaches, and the one given is quite standard but not an Agfa formula.

The 3rd Edition of the DCB lists this first formula as Dassonville T-7, it's just called Flemish toner in earlier edition, but that Selenium solution would be far too dilute so would be ineffectual.

However if used at 1+3 as in 2F/2F's instruction the greater dilution of the stock solution would make sense, as the working solutions would be the same.

Ian

Gosh, I've got bottles of Flemish toner, and it is just a single solution, selenium toner.

It seems to work better than the Kodak version. But that is probably because I got gallons of the stuff for nothing, and it hasn't been made for years !

2F/2F;

The Toner that you have must be at least 30-50+ years old.
Someone may correct me if that time line isn't correct. This stuff shouldn't be used as who knows what reaction may have taken place in that time. But I will give you an option to get rid of it.
The Formulary collects antique Ansco chemistry bottles, and you mentined that the lable was painted on, which in itself dates the product. If you would like to just get rid of it and it has NEVER been opened, you may ship it to us
instead of putting it in the trash or just letting it set on a shelf.
If interested please call me or PM me and we can arrange details.

We collect all kinds of antique photo gear, merchandise, and odd little things that were once produced and aren't any more. Some day we will call it the Analog Photo museum, or something like that. If there is interest we could start a different thread???

By the way, where are the Negatives?? The negatives that your father, mother, uncles and aunts, brothers and sisters, and neighbors etc. shot that are now and could be up to 90years old in a shoe box?? If there is interest I will start a new thread on that also. I hear so much about this stuff just going to the dump when an estate has to be split up between siblings.

Thanxs
Bud

If it is really no different than KRST, of which I have plenty, including those old bottles I mentioned, I will gladly send it to the Formulary. It is unopened. I also have an opened bottle of the same style, quart sized, about half full of Flexogloss Solution (for ferrotyping).

I collect neg/print/slide archives whenever I can. I work at an estate sales company, so whatever gets dumped by the family, I pick up for a fair price. I have two awesome collections so far. One of them is a bunch of negatives...and I also have the Technika III three-lens kit that was used to shoot them all. The other contains some very old family negs and prints, as well as clippings. Very sad that these things were unclaimed and picked over at one of our sales. The person who had passed away was the last living member of his family, and he had no children. He was born in and died in the house at which we held the sale. I got to them at the end of the sale, and still got a great collection...but I don't even want to think about what was pieced out the door during the sale. I am sad that I missed his USN pea coat and dress blues as well. I meant to ask my boss about them, but got there too late.

It's quite different to KRST.

Flemish toner was made once by most companies, Agfa, Agfa Ansco, Ilford, Kodak, Geveart etc and they all published formulae, but it's a Sulphide/Selenium Toner which is quite different to a Selenium/Sulphite toner.

Sulphide in itself is a toner, but Sulphite isn't. They work differently the colour change is different too.

Ian

Ray Rogers said:

Do you know if this is supposed to be THE formula or a substitute/workalike formula?

Click to expand...

No, I don't. I suspect it may be a substitute. After all, Flemish toner was a packaged product, and the name sounds like a proprietary product. But apparently "Flemish Toner" was marketed by a number of companies besides Ansco, so who knows. There may be several different formulas. The original post sounds like this particular product was a direct acting toner. Some toners can be used either as bleach redevelop toners or as direct toners. I don't know how this one works.

Flemish toner can be both direct acting or Bleach & Tone. Agfa (Germany) list the Bleaches as separate formulae unlike Ilford & Kodak etc.

In answer to Ray, the DCB Formula/Agfa 516 may very well be the formula for Agfa Ansco Flemish Toner as it's an old German Agfa formula, but we can't be 100% certain. Although Agfa 516 is far more concentrated than the Toner given in the DCB that might have been a difference in packaging of the commercial product. As the Agfa recommended dilution of 516 is 1+30, that matches the DCB formula if that is diluted 1+3 and also more importantly the dilution on "F/2F's Ansco Flemish toner bottle.

Ian

Original formula or not, should anybody play with powdered selenium?

Anon Ymous said:

Original formula or not, should anybody play with powdered selenium?

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Most people in offices do, it's the main component of Photocop[ier powder.

It's relatively safe as long as you don't ingest or breathe in powdered selenium, I've always handled it in a fume cupboard.

Many people have to take selenium supplements, lack of selenium is a medical problem, and it's present in some vegetables.

Ian

Ian, IIRC photocopiers/laser printer use carbon based toners.

Anon Ymous said:

Ian, IIRC photocopiers/laser printer use carbon based toners.

Click to expand...

Try a Google search, what you think is carbon often contains Selenium.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Try a Google search, what you think is carbon often contains Selenium.

Ian

Click to expand...

It seems that the drum they use is coated with selenium. I don't know if it's somehow transfered in the process, but a blade is used to remove toner from it and that might cause it. To be honest, I wouldn't freak out about it... The toner itself is mostly made of amorphous carbon, resins and a bit of iron.

The older metal drums in copiers were selenium coated.

Ian Grant said:

It's quite different to KRST.

Flemish toner was made once by most companies, Agfa, Agfa Ansco, Ilford, Kodak, Geveart etc and they all published formulae....
Ian

Click to expand...

Hi Ian!

I can't recall any Kodak or Ilford "Flemish" toners. :confused:

I don't know if the formulas given are similar to actual "Flemish" formulas or not
(the math doesn't look right to me-but I am no mathematian!).
Nevertheless, if the name "Flemish" is put on a formula and published,
it's source should mentioned somewhere in the text...

Unfortunately, I do not have DCB so I cannot be sure the author didn't.

It's the same as KRST. It isn't the same. It's this. It's that. It won't work at this age......Ah, what the hell. I am just gonna try some as the bottle sez to do. Will tear a print in half and compare the Flemish Toner to one of my old half-pint bottles of KRST, see if there is any difference, and report back. If it doesn't work, I'll dispose of it properly. Bud, you are welcome to the empty bottle when I am done, but I am going to give it a try. You can fill it up with some water for display if you still want it.

Here is the link to the information on Flemish Toner on Jack's Photographic & Chemistry Site:

http://www.jackspcs.com/flempt.htm

Matt

2F/2F said:

Hello,

I have an old bottle of this (glass with painted label). Is it any different than selenium toner? The description and instructions on the bottle sound near identical to those on KRST, and the bottle states that is contains sodium selenite.

I have this, plus two old quart bottles and two old half pint bottles of KRST. The bottles are all glass with paper labels. I am assuming this stuff keeps forever. Am I correct?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

*******
I used it for toning warm tone prints of copied vintage photographs. It gave a nice warm, purplish color. After it was no longer available, I went to EK Selenium, then Poly-toner. I really liked the Ansco. but then, I like most ansco stuff.

2F/2F said:

It's the same as KRST. It isn't the same. It's this. It's that. It won't work at this age......Ah, what the hell. I am just gonna try some as the bottle sez to do. Will tear a print in half and compare the Flemish Toner to one of my old half-pint bottles of KRST, see if there is any difference, and report back. If it doesn't work, I'll dispose of it properly. Bud, you are welcome to the empty bottle when I am done, but I am going to give it a try. You can fill it up with some water for display if you still want it.

Click to expand...

How old are those KRST bottles?

You know, one way to dispose of old KRST that would be nice for us all...

It seems there was confusion about the true nature of the KRST IPI had used in their early testing,
with later dated KRST giving different results... basicly,
they suspected that the old formulas contained some sulfur toner as well as selenium, although the more recent KRST did not;
thay postulated that this might have been responsible for the different results IPI were now getting in their stability tests.

Unfortunayely, AFAIK, they were never able to prove this conjecture;
the old KSRT was no longer being made and KODAK wasn't offering up formulas either.
So, My Idea, is to offer any qualified research/analytical chemist some of the old KRST
and see if they can find any proof of sulfur toner alongside the Se.

IPI might also be encouraged to redo their tests with both KRST samples... old and new.

I doubt anyone is going to jump at this idea to research old technology... but who knows...
I was never happy with the conclusions reached which has placed doubt on Se as a protective toner,
perhaps it is just that I feel there is more that needs to be said.
Yet already, books are picking up on those results and dismissing Se toners out of hand.

I feel that at the very least, there is more to be said about the chemistry of selenium toning
and its relationship to "Ideal" or "Optimal Protective Toning".

IPI should revisit this issue.

Perhaps they or someone else could be pursuaded to examine the two samples....

As far as your bottle of Flemish toner goes, if everything is still in solution,
I doubt you would discover any differences (besides toning rate and color) between it and either period KRST.

More detailed studies could prove interesting, however.

Ray

ps, Bud has previously indicated he wants it if unopened.
If correct, please note I would accept it either way.