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Hubigpielover

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Almost done with the darkroom and that means it is time to start shooting again. I couldn't justify giving The Darkroom all my money when I had almost 90% of what I needed for a darkroom.

I've really wanted to learn the Zone System and I was lucky to find a Pentax Digital Meter for cheap. My question is this and I didn't find an answer searching.

Bruce Barnbaum in a video says to put the shadows you want in Zone 4 while exposing and printing at Zone 3. Anyone tried this out?

 

Bill Burk

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Where you place shadows varies in different teachings.

Early (Minor White) books had you place shadows at Zone II while most use Zone III.

Bruce Barnbaum has his own idea which will lead you to greater exposure than you need.

He doesn’t mention the rated speed of film. Zone System tests typically arrive at between 2/3 stop to a full stop less speed than manufacturers rated speed (which does the same thing as Bruce recommends).


I recommend checking your own ideas against a sensible benchmark. You don’t want the cumulative effect of your adjustments to take the actual exposure too far from what you might get from other metering techniques.
 

Bill Burk

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Oh and you will always print to make the picture look good no matter what the exposure was.
 

chriscrawfordphoto

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Barnbaum's method overexposes the film one stop. It will give more shadow detail, but also increases graininess and can make highlights hard to print in high contrast scenes. If you're doing this with large format film it probably works ok; I would not recommend it for 120 or (especially) 35mm.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Where you place shadows varies in different teachings.

Early (Minor White) books had you place shadows at Zone II while most use Zone III.

Bruce Barnbaum has his own idea which will lead you to greater exposure than you need.

He doesn’t mention the rated speed of film. Zone System tests typically arrive at between 2/3 stop to a full stop less speed than manufacturers rated speed (which does the same thing as Bruce recommends).


I recommend checking your own ideas against a sensible benchmark. You don’t want the cumulative effect of your adjustments to take the actual exposure too far from what you might get from other metering techniques.
+1
 

markbau

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I don't mean to be pedantic but just saying place "shadows" on Zone II or III or whatever is a bit meaningless, shadows come in many different varieties. It would be more helpful to define a shadow as the darkest part of a scene where you want to preserve full detail. A shadow in a snowy scene is very different to a shadow in a dark forest.
 

Drew B.

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I don't mean to be pedantic but just saying place "shadows" on Zone II or III or whatever is a bit meaningless, shadows come in many different varieties. It would be more helpful to define a shadow as the darkest part of a scene where you want to preserve full detail. A shadow in a snowy scene is very different to a shadow in a dark forest.

A shadow area in any scene is the same....as long as it is a dark area where the details could be lost or seen depending on settings one makes. I would want the image to show whatever detail there is...no more or less. (just my opinion)

I tend to go toward zone 111
 

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Barnbaum's method overexposes the film one stop. It will give more shadow detail, but also increases graininess and can make highlights hard to print in high contrast scenes. If you're doing this with large format film it probably works ok; I would not recommend it for 120 or (especially) 35mm.
It can work with sheet film because you can adjust development. It’s subtle in the video, because he almost mentions it in passing, but when you overexpose (which he stipulates this is doing) then you have to decrease development to compensate. Can’t one do this with roll film? Sure, but you have to do the whole roll the same. Like Chris, I would not recommend it.

Metering, exposing, and developing is all part of an integrated system that each photographer must learn and devise on their own. Start with the simple basics. Learn to use the meter, whatever kind it is. But beware of any “method” where the practitioner is stating or hinting that they have found the secret and everyone else has been doing it wrong for all of history. Just saying ... :cool:
 
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MattKing

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The more generalized message to take from Mr. Barnbaum is that there are advantages to giving generous exposure to a negative.
You should understand though that there are disadvantages as well - primarily relating to grain and highlight rendition (with some films).
Mr. Barnbaum is a very good printer - particularly with respect to retrieving detail from those highlights that he has intentionally over-exposed on his negatives.
I am not a devotee of Mr. Barnbaum's approach, but I have friends who are. They are more likely to use LF, and I never do.
 
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People have different approaches for arriving at the same result. Barnbaum places his shadows high (exposing more fully), "develops less" (than he was when trying to get shadow detail out of an underexposed negative) and gets what he wants. Some simply rate the film slower (exposing more fully, i.e., getting Zone III up on the straight line portion of their film) and test for an optimum development time (likely less than manufacturers' recommendations) and get basically the same result.

Getting shadow detail on the straight-line portion of the curve is a good idea for a lot of photography. For other styles, it's less important (think portraiture, where the mid-tones are most important, or the "pushed" look, which dumps shadows entirely in favor of a contrasty rendering). Some films really need a lot of "extra" exposure to get Zone III up on the straight-line portion of the film. 320Tri-X is such a film. Others, like the T-Max films, have a straight-line portion that goes down very low and a very short toe section. Deciding what exposure to give, then, depends on 1) where you want your shadows in the first place, i.e., on the straight-line portion or not, and 2) the characteristics of the film you are using.

Barnbaum is generally correct, however, in that an underexposed negative with less separation in the shadows than one wants (whatever that is) gives lackluster prints. My advice to students who are having trouble getting satisfactory prints is almost always, "expose your film more."

The basic exposure and development part of the Zone System aims to get printable detail in the darkest shadows (i.e., adequate exposure) and put the highlights in a place where they are not difficult to print (proper development). At it's most basic level, then, it's simply: expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. How you usually find the right exposure for the shadows is to do a test at different exposures, make prints and choose the exposure that gives you the shadow detail and separation you want. You can call this a personal film speed, place your shadows in Zone VI, dial in exposure compensation on your automatic camera, whatever you like. The Zone System likes you to think in terms of a personal film speed (E.I. = exposure index) based on your testing. Like the negative that's 2/3 underexposed from box speed, then rate your film 2/3 stop slower.

Finding the right development is second. Does the highlight fall too low? Expansion development is needed and vice-versa. If the highlight falls just where we want it, then Normal development is called for. To test, make some identical negatives at your new exposure and develop them for different times. Find the one that prints both the shadows and the highlights where you want them at a contrast setting right in the middle of your contrast range. That's the development for scenes with that brightness range. Do this for a few scenes with different brightness ranges and you've got a choice of development times for different situations.

You don't really need the Zone System to do all this, however. The real advantage of the Zone System is as a tool for visualizing the final print and making your exposure and development choices based on that rather than just making a standard, plain vanilla, "printable" negative. For many, however, this is all the Zone System they need. Learning how to meter effectively and getting all the information they want on the negative lets them print it "any way they want."

Expanding on the visualization aspect, however, many of us decide more precisely where to place a certain shadow value depending on how we want it to look in the print. A dark shadow that still retains texture? That's the classic Zone III placement. Bright shadows in a snow scene? That's Zone V for me. Inky black, solid-looking shadows on a dune? I'll place them on Zone II or even Zone I. This is now using the Zone System as a visualization tool for achieving the desired results in the final print.

Dealing with highlights is the same. Nice white with a modicum of texture still? Classic Zone VIII, I'll choose a development time to put it there, based on the subject brightness range and where I've placed the shadow. But maybe I want a really bright, almost featureless white, or a richer, more detailed white. I'll adjust accordingly.

Nowadays, one can deal with many of the contrast scenarios with darkroom controls instead of changing development. Many do this, especially roll-film users. They find one development time for everything that lets them deal with all the extremes of negative contrasts, low to high, with contrast settings, etc. I use a combination of the two.

Once one has a basic understanding of how the system works, getting a printable negative is easy: avoid underexposure by exposing for a shadow value and find a development time that lets you get the print you want. After that, one can graduate to the more advanced aspects of the system: visualizing the values and breaking the rules for a "normal" negative in order to get the effect one desires. That's the whole reason the Zone System has zones; so we can picture them in our mind's eye.

Best,

Doremus
 
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Sirius Glass

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Use the spot meter to take a light reading of the shadow which you want the details to be printed and set that in Zone 2 or Zone 3 as you prefer and print as YOU chose.
 

Deleted member 88956

A shadow area in any scene is the same....as long as it is a dark area where the details could be lost or seen depending on settings one makes. I would want the image to show whatever detail there is...no more or less. (just my opinion)

I tend to go toward zone 111
I don't know of two scenes that are the same let alone shadows to be the same in all scenes. Exposing is always case by case, especially in Zone System. I find no universality for shadow placement yet there are not too many choices either. Then highlights sometimes are far more critical.

ZS is a whole process, doesn't start nor end with shadow placement.

Advising to place shadows here or there on every shot is not really sound, but depending on who says it ... may sound good.
 

Sirius Glass

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Advising to place shadows here or there on every shot is not really sound, but depending on who says it ... may sound good.

D'oh! :redface: Face slap! :blink: Stupid me! :cry: I have been doing exactly that for several decades with great results! Now I will have to stop doing that just because Witold said I am wrong! :sad: Woe is me! :redface: I am going sit in the corner! :whistling::whistling::whistling:
 

Deleted member 88956

D'oh! :redface: Face slap! :blink: Stupid me! :cry: I have been doing exactly that for several decades with great results! Now I will have to stop doing that just because Witold said I am wrong! :sad: Woe is me! :redface: I am going sit in the corner! :whistling::whistling::whistling:
Perhaps you need to read what I said again.
 

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Almost done with the darkroom and that means it is time to start shooting again. I couldn't justify giving The Darkroom all my money when I had almost 90% of what I needed for a darkroom.

(snip

Bruce Barnbaum in a video says to put the shadows you want in Zone 4 while exposing and printing at Zone 3. Anyone tried this out?

A number of years ago (at an "International meeting of the Biological Photographic Association (now (Biocomm.org, Dr Martin Scott indicated that (for Kodachrome) the "place the highights" (ie 'white with texture) on Zone VIII+1/3, since Kodachrome processing had the 'tightest' development methods of any film.

I have been 'doing that (when using all my LF film exposures ever since (expose for the Highlights (with texture)
on "Zone Vlll+1/3 of a stop and giving my film "normal' development and 'letting the shadows "Fall where they may) My reasoning is that the 'lighter' area on a B/W print are the 'areas to which the viewing eye is first 'drawn'... much before 'information' in the shadows.

Now...Before you all try and 'shout me down' might I suggest you 'give it a try. I now always carry around a small 'swatch' of clean white towelling put it in the 'SAME light condition.. read the 'results that my spot meter indicates,
which is very close( less than1/3 of a stop to what I get using my incident light meter reading
Don't forget to allow "Allow for any bellows extension" and "GO FOR IT!!!

Ken

'
 

KenS

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Almost done with the darkroom and that means it is time to start shooting again. I couldn't justify giving The Darkroom all my money when I had almost 90% of what I needed for a darkroom.
(snip)
Bruce Barnbaum in a video says to put the shadows you want in Zone 4 while exposing and printing at Zone 3. Anyone tried this out?



A number of years ago I was at an "International" meeting of Biological/Biomedical Photographers where DR Martin Scott indicated that with Kodachrome (which had the "tightest' of all processing requirements) the BEST way was to read/meter a 'white with texture' and 'place that value in "Zone VIII+1/3' which is usually within 'about 1/3 of a stop of an incident meter reading.

I now 'use that method for ALL my LF B&W films.. my reasoning is that the hominid eye is first 'drawn to the 'lighter' areas for 'information' in that area before seeking fine details in the 'shadows'.

Now... before y'all try and 'shut me down' might I suggest that you 'give it a try' before telling me I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about... but I've used it for years and I'm more that just 'satisfied' with the results.

Ken
 

John Koehrer

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A number of years ago I was at an "International" meeting of Biological/Biomedical Photographers where DR Martin Scott indicated that with Kodachrome (which had the "tightest' of all processing requirements) the BEST way was to read/meter a 'white with texture' and 'place that value in "Zone VIII+1/3' which is usually within 'about 1/3 of a stop of an incident meter reading.

Now... before y'all try and 'shut me down' might I suggest that you 'give it a try' before telling me I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about... but I've used it for years and I'm more that just 'satisfied' with the results.

Ken
There was a book many years ago that recommended this approach & it went against everything I learned UNTIL
I realized the author was referring to slide film and you didn't want to burn the highlights out.
 
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A number of years ago I was at an "International" meeting of Biological/Biomedical Photographers where DR Martin Scott indicated that with Kodachrome (which had the "tightest' of all processing requirements) the BEST way was to read/meter a 'white with texture' and 'place that value in "Zone VIII+1/3' which is usually within 'about 1/3 of a stop of an incident meter reading.

I now 'use that method for ALL my LF B&W films.. my reasoning is that the hominid eye is first 'drawn to the 'lighter' areas for 'information' in that area before seeking fine details in the 'shadows'.

Now... before y'all try and 'shut me down' might I suggest that you 'give it a try' before telling me I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about... but I've used it for years and I'm more that just 'satisfied' with the results.

Ken

Yep, that's probably the best way to expose Kodachrome or any other transparency film. Notice that you're basing your exposure on the least-dense area of the film (the whites in transparency film are the least dense). Note also, that basing your exposure on a shadow value for negative film is the same thing, in essence. For transparency film, there's not much contrast control, so the shadows get sacrificed in favor of texture in the high values in contrasty situations. With B&W film, we don't have to settle for this. Still, using a similar metering method isn't necessarily going to give you bad negatives.

The late Fred Picker of Zone VI Studio fame used to recommend placing a high value (Zone VIII iirc) and forgetting about the rest when shooting black and white. This works pretty well, actually, in all but the more contrasty situations, especially if you rate your film at half the box speed, which he routinely did. Where this method breaks down is in situations with large subject-brightness ranges. In these cases, basing your exposure on a highlight value that's many Zones away from a shadow area you may want detail in ends up underexposing said shadow. Think dark interior with a window and a bright daylight scene outside. If you base your exposure on the scene in the window, that dark interior will end up featureless. The ideal way to deal with this situation (with negative film) is to meter the interior and adjust development (or somehow otherwise deal with contrast) for the high values. One can save the shadows if one recognizes the situation as very contrasty and adds exposure to the meter reading (basically a high-contrast exposure factor) to get adequate exposure in the low values. If the negative is then developed "normally," one would hope that the normal development was not too aggressive, and that one had enough other contrast controls (VC paper, etc.) to get the print made.

Fred also didn't use a lot of different development times (N, N+, N-), but just two, N and N+1 1/2; he felt that contraction developments always yielded poor prints. So, you can bet that his development times were on the short side. He'd meter and place his highlight value, make two identical negatives, develop one normally and one at N+1 1/2 and then print the one that worked best. As I said, this works well in the majority of situations. It's basically what I do when shooting roll film; I just add modify it by adding additional exposure for contrasty situations, thereby reducing the risk of dumping the shadows.

So, Ken, I'm not surprised that that a similar method has worked for you well over the years. Just realize that it's a simplification that works in the majority of cases, but not all. Basing negative-film exposure on a shadow value always ensures adequate shadow exposure. Even if one develops everything at one developing time, the resulting range of contrasts can be fairly easily dealt with with printing controls provided that one arrives at a standard developing time that places both extremes (high- and low-contrast scenes) in the printable range. For those of us that shoot sheet film, tweaking development time a bit for scenes that are more or less contrasty than normal is easy. For roll film users, less so. If you want to modify your method to compensate for loss of shadow detail in really contrasty situations, just overexpose a stop from your meter reading when the contrast is great. That will increase your chances in those trickier situations.

Best,

Doremus
 

Sirius Glass

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There was a book many years ago that recommended this approach & it went against everything I learned UNTIL
I realized the author was referring to slide film and you didn't want to burn the highlights out.

The Zone Systems works for slides. It just uses the high end of the exposure range instead of the shadows.
 
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Hubigpielover

Hubigpielover

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Where you place shadows varies in different teachings.

Early (Minor White) books had you place shadows at Zone II while most use Zone III.

Bruce Barnbaum has his own idea which will lead you to greater exposure than you need.

He doesn’t mention the rated speed of film. Zone System tests typically arrive at between 2/3 stop to a full stop less speed than manufacturers rated speed (which does the same thing as Bruce recommends).


I recommend checking your own ideas against a sensible benchmark. You don’t want the cumulative effect of your adjustments to take the actual exposure too far from what you might get from other metering techniques.

Makes sense. Still trying to wrap my head around the zone system.

Oh and you will always print to make the picture look good no matter what the exposure was.

That's the way I learned.



Barnbaum's method overexposes the film one stop. It will give more shadow detail, but also increases graininess and can make highlights hard to print in high contrast scenes. If you're doing this with large format film it probably works ok; I would not recommend it for 120 or (especially) 35mm.

This makes sense thanks.
 
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Hubigpielover

Hubigpielover

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It can work with sheet film because you can adjust development. It’s subtle in the video, because he almost mentions it in passing, but when you overexpose (which he stipulates this is doing) then you have to decrease development to compensate. Can’t one do this with roll film? Sure, but you have to do the whole roll the same. Like Chris, I would not recommend it.

Metering, exposing, and developing is all part of an integrated system that each photographer must learn and devise on their own. Start with the simple basics. Learn to use the meter, whatever kind it is. But beware of any “method” where the practitioner is stating or hinting that they have found the secret and everyone else has been doing it wrong for all of history. Just saying ... :cool:

I agree with both statements and I have The Camera, Negative, and Print because they are all important. Just trying to figure out this damn zone system because I heard it is the bee's knees.

The more generalized message to take from Mr. Barnbaum is that there are advantages to giving generous exposure to a negative.
You should understand though that there are disadvantages as well - primarily relating to grain and highlight rendition (with some films).
Mr. Barnbaum is a very good printer - particularly with respect to retrieving detail from those highlights that he has intentionally over-exposed on his negatives.
I am not a devotee of Mr. Barnbaum's approach, but I have friends who are. They are more likely to use LF, and I never do.

I pretty much shoot MF now to the point that I am considering getting rid of all my 35mm cameras. If I ever go back to 35mm it would be a rangefinder.
 
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