Another "What do I do Now" Question...

sidearm613 · May 17, 2010

Hi all.
I recently joined the ranks of large format photographers when I received a 4x5 Calumet monorail in the mail. Hurrah for me! Now, I'm not entirely new to the large format experience, so I know the principles and the operation, etc. One thing that did take me by surprise is that apparently lenses designed for 8X10 or larger shouldn't be used on a 4x5 as it might result in softness at the edges and a loss of image quality. Is this true? Or is the Samy's camera guy talking nonsense?

The thing that is most new to me is the developing and metering. I am not yet equipped to do 4x5 developing, and I am curious how some of you do it. I need a daylight method of processing as my bathroom isn't nearly dark enough to do tray processing. I heard people mention "Combiplan" a lot. I also hear mixed reviews. I also seem to recall reading that Nikor made a 4x5 SS tank and reel system a while back. If this system is much better than the Combiplan, then it is the one I would like to use, so if anybody has any hints on where to find one.... Otherwise, I think I'll be taking my chances with Combiplan.
The other thing is metering. I so far have no handheld meter, and have been depending on the metering of a separate SLR or digicam. The problem with this is that its painstaking, tiresome, and, especially in the case of using a digicam which can't be stopped down past f/8, very inaccurate. Many LF lenses start around f/8! I have heard about incident light metering, as well as spot metering. I know how both work, but I could use recommendations on a meter that just.... works. I don't do much studio work and often photograph places where taking an incident reading would be, uh, hard. So what do I do?

michaelbsc · May 17, 2010

sidearm613 said:
One thing that did take me by surprise is that apparently lenses designed for 8X10 or larger shouldn't be used on a 4x5 as it might result in softness at the edges and a loss of image quality. Is this true? Or is the Samy's camera guy talking nonsense?

Think about it for a minute. The area of a 4x5 would be included in the middle of the area of an 8x10. So if the 4x5 edges were soft, then over 75% of the area of the 8x10 would be soft.

The other way around, however, isn't so silly. A lens that has limited coverage on 4x5 will be noticeably lacking on 8X10. But even this isn't necessarily bad. I've gotten some good effects with a 6x9 105mm lens that "fades" nicely into the vignetting toward the edges on 8x10. Makes a nice round picture in the center. It probably wouldn't impress Edwin Weston, but I already had the lens and it is a hobby isn't it?

So, a lens designed for 8x10 will give you outstanding coverage on 4x5. And many of my 4x5 lenses have circles big enough that my pitiful eye can't tell they're not good enough for 8x10.

David William White · May 17, 2010

1) yes, samy's is some strange nonsense.
2) best to start cheap with developing. bathroom at night. (load holders at night too.) use those plastic containers that hold bags of milk, or juice pitchers - dev, stop, fix. will all fit on a counter. i've never needed anything else.
3) cheap slr with zoom is a great spot meter. and cheaper. take 'safety' shot with slr, same film. develop roll film first.

put savings into film.

2F/2F · May 17, 2010

If it's Frank, he is most likely not talking nonsense, and you may have misunderstood him. If someone else, who knows.

Generally speaking, lenses for larger formats don't need to be as "good" as those for smaller formats, because the pix are generally not enlarged as much. For instance, you will find that most of the time small format lenses outperform medium format lenses in the resolution department, and that medium format lenses outperform large format lenses. Whether 4x5 lenses outperform 8x10 lenses in the same way, I do not know, but if they do, that could be what the guy was talking about.

nick mulder · May 17, 2010

Michael has covered it (excuse the pun) - but I'll add that I suspect that the samys guy or yourself got wires crossed - it would be fair enough to say the reverse "lenses designed for 4x5 or larger shouldn't be used on a 8x10 as it might result in softness at the edges and a loss of image quality"

As for developing - the easiest trick is to wait until night, you'll still need to black out the windows and door frame and ask/tell your co-habitants to stay the $#%@ away please - and/or tape over the lightswitch for the hallway and the doorknob - then trays are go... A little (and I mean a really really little) spill is usually fine but depending on the construction of your house you might need to tape over the surrounds of light fixtures and upstairs shower plug holes that have plastic piping... Lights installed in other rooms can bleed through ceiling voids and these into your bathroom and onto your film

Metering - your digicam is a reflective style light meter and probably has a spot mode, in which case it is a spot meter - the fact it doesn't go down past f8 shouldn't be an issue, simply reverse engineer the settings ... say you want f32 and your digicam says at f8 it's going to trip the shutter for 1/250sec

f8 1/250
f11 1/125 1
f16 1/60 2
f22 1/30 3
f32 1/15 4

Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs ! but if not and this seems tiresome, its gets hard wired into you soon enough

Nick

sidearm613 · May 17, 2010

I knew the Samy's guy was wrong! I was thinking "wait, shouldn't the larger image circle mean I'm using the lenses' sweet spot on a smaller format?" VINDICATED!

As for tray processing, thanks but no thanks. I am currently living in the parents house, and next year its off to college for me. Sorry, I need a daylight solution. Besides, I am really not comfortable being in total darkness for sustained periods of time. It's a claustrophobia thing...

What I really want is one of those high end Sekonic L series thingermajiggers. Yeah!

David William White · May 18, 2010

how are you going to get film into holders and into a daylight tank?
how do you process now?

Shadowtracker · May 18, 2010

No matter what, you will have to load film in the dark at some point. That means film holders and taking film from the holders into whatever you are developing in. There are several plans for tubes to develop in but I've never used them. The dark is just the same as doing things with your eyes closed = move slower, practice in the light, then close your eyes and go through the steps and then turn out the lights and go through the steps. But you might be able to make a really dark changing bag type thing to hold the trays until developing is done, washing can be in the light. How to get trays or tanks into something like that is a bit of a mystery, but I don't mind the dark; it's my friend. Then too, drips of chemicals on whatever fabric you make a developing tent/bag out of could destroy the fabric. Still, it's an idea to toy with and see what you come up with. Maybe a box with changing bag sleeves. But once your hands are in the thing, they probably have to stay there until the film is fixed.

wildbill · May 18, 2010

David, pm me if you need film.

ac12 · May 18, 2010

David
Consider using a processing drum. Check this link out.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/
This is the method that I am planning to use. Load the backs in a changing bag, then after you shoot, move the film from the back to the drum in a large changing bag. No need to be in the dark.

As for exposure, google "sunny 16 rule" and you should find sites explaining this. I used this in my early 35mm days when I did not have a meter. It worked pretty good. You just have to figure out when to use which description in the chart.

gud luk

sidearm613 · May 18, 2010

David William White said:
how are you going to get film into holders and into a daylight tank?
how do you process now?

Hi David, I've got a changing bag that I've been using so far with great success for roll film

sidearm613 · May 18, 2010

wildbill said:
David, pm me if you need film.

Thanks Vinny!

David William White · May 18, 2010

You might find a changing bag a bit fiddly for 4x5. There are small changing tents, or you can make yourself a little frame to go inside you bag, at least until you're able to set yourself up a darkroom. Good luck with the 4x5, and post something as soon as you can!

werra · May 18, 2010

Well, changing bag gets fiddly with 8x10, 4x5 is very easy in the bag. As for developing, get one of those Jobo tanks. You can roll them manually, with conservative amount of fluid. At least for development. Washing and fixing can be done in standard ilford-procedure style.

tih · May 18, 2010

For processing 4x5 film, I use a Paterson Orbital processing tray. It's light tight, so the actual processing is done with the lights on. Getting the film sheets from the holders to the tray has to be done in the dark, of course, or in a changing bag.

The Orbital shows up on eBay from time to time, at wildly varying prices. I see there's one on eBay UK now, at what I feel is too high a price for one that's missing the base. Still usable, sure, but not as comfortable.

If you do end up with an Orbital, be aware that it's made for processing paper, and has a smooth inside. Film will stick to it, and the anti-halation layer on the back will therefore not be properly washed out. I scratched a grid of "channels" into the surface, and then roughed it up with coarse sand paper.

Rick A · May 18, 2010

Congrats on joining the ranks of LF. First off, lets keep developing simple. I use the 'taco' method.It involves a Paterson (or similar) tank(no reels, center column stays)) thats tall enough to accept the film standing on edge(4"+)and folded ala taco and held by rubber band(emulsion facing inward), I can fit up to 6 films in my tank. Process as you would 120 or 35mm. Try practicing with paper negatives until you are comfortable with the entire process from loading film holders to developing and all in between.
You are correct in your thought s on 8x10 lenses, just make sure any lens you pick up will cover your format. Obviously, the larger the image circle the more movements you can utilize from the camera.
Have fun with the new toy!

Thingy · May 18, 2010

I agree with Tih. i have just managed to buy myself a Paterson Orbital plus motor on eBay (seperately) after being dissatisfied with the Combi-tank. The Combi takes too long to fill (!!!!) and uses a litre of chemicals per 4 sheets as against a fraction of that with the Orbital. The Orbital allows the air to escape quickly through the lightproof funnel thing at the top.

I suggest you get yourself a Harrison Standard tent for loading the film and placing it, emulsion facing upwards, in the development tank. You can take it with you to college and fold it away after use.

On the lens front, I use a 10x8 lens (the Nikkor 120/f8) for architectural photography with my 5x4 and it is very sharp.... and weighs half a ton!

Modern, computer designed, good quality lenses can be used outside their supposed range. In an emergency you can use the Schneider 120 HM Macro lens for landscape photography, focussed at infinity, albeit with zero movements. I also regularly use the 120 HM Macro with a 6x9 rollfilm back. The Cooke PS945 is designed for a 5x4 camera but can also be used with a 5x7 camera, with more limited movements.

totalamateur · May 18, 2010

This might help

I made this exposure card for my own use - it's similar to another one I found on the internet, but basically, print the attached spreadsheet on card stock, cut along the lines, cut out a window in the dotted lines glue on the "glue here" areas, and fold. and the directions are on the back.

I use this also to estimate the ISO of my homemade emulsion so the "to find lighting" instructions and the "to find ISO " instructions are probably not too useful.

A few caveats:
1. With Arista 100 I set the ISO to 85, and over expose by 1/2 stop (or just use the ISO 64 line) . With TriX 320, the ISO 341 line works fine.
2. The "reciprocity failure time" in the far left is probably not real accurate past 4 minutes. I think these were times for tri-x but who knows.
3. Using the "conditions" for light dimmer than F2.8 (deep woods) is highly unreliable - I generally give it at least another stop of exposure in this range
4. I recently shot a whole day using this, "metering" the light according to the "conditions" and didn't miss by more than a stop. For me, this works better than metering with a DSLR.

So, If you are in shade, but it's sunny, say underneath several large oak trees, or perhaps and outdoor venue with a roof but no sides, like a tent sale, I'd put that in the "shade" conditions, or F5.6, If were shooting an ISO100 film, you slide the F5.6 on the slider up to ISO 85 (just round to the nearest for everything) and you can shoot any of teh aperature / time combinations listed - in this case, F32@ 1/3, F22 @1/5 , F16 @ 1/11, or F8 @1/43. Again, round to the nearest shutter speed for each case.
edit: I guess worse comes to worse, if you can't get this printed up right, PM me an address and I'll print one and stick it in the mail.

lilmsmaggie · May 18, 2010

Check out Michael Gordon's website: http://www.michael-gordon.com/index.php

He has a video that demonstrates how to do B&W daylight processing:

http://michaelegordon.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/how-to-video-daylight-sheet-film-4x5-development-2/

John Koehrer · May 18, 2010

The Jobo 4X5 tank & reel may be the most convenient for you. It's a tank & reel similar to 120 but larger and uses a loader for convenince.
The bright side about light meters is they're much smaller than an SLR light meter. For under $100 a Luna Pro or Sekonic 308 would do all but spot metering and the Sekonic has a flash meter function. The Luna Pro SBC I believe also has flash metering.

mwdake · May 18, 2010

If you are on a budget then I second the taco method or the Unicolor Drum.
The taco method is simple to do, I still use it for 3x4 film in a Paterson tank.
I use a Unicolor Drum for 4x5 with great success albeit with a little leaking.

archer · May 19, 2010

Dear mwdake;
If your Unicolor print drum is leaking, make a new gasket for it from the polyethylene lid from a coffee can or the lid from a plastic container of Cool Whip and make the width 1/8 inch wider...voila! no more leaks.
Denise Libby

sidearm613 · May 19, 2010

ralnphot said:
Congrats on joining the ranks of LF. First off, lets keep developing simple. I use the 'taco' method.It involves a Paterson (or similar) tank(no reels, center column stays)) thats tall enough to accept the film standing on edge(4"+)and folded ala taco and held by rubber band(emulsion facing inward), I can fit up to 6 films in my tank. Process as you would 120 or 35mm. Try practicing with paper negatives until you are comfortable with the entire process from loading film holders to developing and all in between.
You are correct in your thought s on 8x10 lenses, just make sure any lens you pick up will cover your format. Obviously, the larger the image circle the more movements you can utilize from the camera.
Have fun with the new toy!

The taco method as you describe it seems to be begging for uneven development. I'll take your word for it, as I've never tried it. I really do want that Nikor steel tank. I'm a stainless steel guy. Oh, if Hewes made a 4x5 developing tank!

michaelbsc · May 20, 2010

archer said:
...If your Unicolor print drum is leaking, make a new gasket for it from the polyethylene lid from a coffee can or the lid from a plastic container of Cool Whip and make the width 1/8 inch wider...voila! no more leaks.
Denise Libby

Hey, great suggestion. Thanks!

sidearm613 · May 31, 2010

Okay folks, follow up question: Now I'm finally getting around to equipping my camera with a modern lens. I love wide angle work, and there is this 90mm f/5.6 Caltar at my local Samys that I've got my eye on. Will I need a recessed lens board or bag bellows to use such a lens on a 4x5? I searched this online and got very conflicting reports. From what I get, 90mm on 4x5 is on the borderline where the 10 photographers and 11 opinions seem to occur. Some say that you can even get movements galore with not recessed board and no bellows, some say that I need both to do anything more than barely achieve infinity focus. Most are somewhere in the middle. What do you APUGers think? I would like to be able to just use standard board and bellows. I don't need movements galore, but I would like some...

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