Another switching to fiber thread...

[c.w.]

I know there are probably about ten million threads on this, but i've been searching for a while now and haven't made a whole lot of headway - sorry.

So, i've got some 8x10 and 11x14 FB paper now, and i'm wondering how i'll have to change my processing from my normal RC paper. Here's what i'm doing as of right now:

1) Developer - 2-3 minutes, depending on if it's getting old.
2) Wash with water
3) Film strength (1:3) fixer - 2 minutes
4) Throw in a bucket of water until i get the next print done

As i understand, the fix and wash steps are different, so here's my questions:

1) I'd like to stay with film strength fixer, just so i don't have to have 8000 chemical bottles all over the place (the darkroom is small enough as it is) - i've read that a lot of people use a two bath film strenght fix with fiber for shorter wash times. How exactly does that work?

2) Do i need to use some sort of hypo clearing agent, or can i get away without it?

3) Obviously, i'll have to take more care with my wash step. I'm thinking i'll leave the prints in a bucket of water until i'm done for the day, then change the water. Then i'd change the water after a couple hours, and a final change a couple hours (possibly even overnight, if that sounds good) later? Does that sound like enough? I've read that it's more about diffusion than changing the water, and since i don't have running water in the darkroom, they fewer times i have to change it the better.

4) Here's the catch - I can't really add any more trays (i'm out of table space as it is with only 3), so anything above has to be done somehow without another tray, or an archival washer or any other equipment really. Any ideas on that?

Of course, i'll welcome any other advice. I'm sure this has all come up a thousand times before, but thank you for your help?

 

[mike c]

Hi CW,I'll try to help you as much as I can. There is not that much difference between the 2 types of paper,fiber base papers due need to be washed longer the fiber holds on to the chemicals more. 1) normal development is 2 to 3 mins, some people use more time 3 to5 .
2) after fixer I rinse paper then use hypo clearing then start to wash. When you are printing you can store prints in bucket of water, when done printing use hypo clear and wash. Hypo clear is important,cuts down on time and water usage .
3) after hypo clear change water after 2mins,5mins,10mins,and 20mins should be fine don't leave in water to long or the emulsion might get damaged.
4) When you are done printing put away your chemicals and use the space for washing the prints.
5) There is brackets that are made to stack trays on top of one another . Thats about all the advice I'm good for right now.

Mike

 

[philipp.leser]

As the paper will be soaked with developer after step 1, a real stop bath (instead of just a water "stop") cannot be omitted with fiber based paper.

Regards,
Philipp

 

[Steve Smith]

4) When you are done printing put away your chemicals and use the space for washing the prints.

Or take them to your custom installed archival print washer. Or the shower as my wife likes to call it.


Steve

 

[thefizz]

2 minutes fixing in film strength fixer would be too long to my knowledge. Ilford recommend 1 minute.

 

[Dan Henderson]

As the paper will be soaked with developer after step 1, a real stop bath (instead of just a water "stop") cannot be omitted with fiber based paper.

Regards,
Philipp

I stopped using stop bath (see, double negatives DO have their place in grammar) a couple of years ago when I switched to TF4 fixer, and I have had no trouble.

I also agree that 2 minutes in fixer is too long. I fix for 1 minute. I wash for 30 minutes in an efficient print washer, and do not use hypo clear.

 

[dancqu]

4) Here's the catch - I can't really add any more trays
(i'm out of table space as it is with only 3), so anything
above has to be done somehow without another tray, or
an archival washer or any other equipment really.
Any ideas on that?

Of course, i'll welcome any other advice.

I too was faced with tight quarters so adopted the single
tray processing method. Saving each solution to some
container after each step in the process is one way
of single tray processing.

Another way, which I use, makes use of more dilute than
usual chemistry and minimal solution volumes. Similar to
rotary processing where very dilute chemistry is used
one-shot. A tray takes the place of the tube.

I've found that I can do without any sort of stop. The
chemistry is quite dilute and used only once. After
developing and fixing the prints are placed in
a hold tray. Polyester separators are used
twixt the prints.

After hold, an hour or so with separators for the
first wash. A second overnight wash. The method
uses a least amount of water and takes little time.

Silver levels within the single fix are within
archival levels. More details? PM. Dan

 

[bdial]

The two bath fix method is to use two fixing baths, and give half the total time in each. When the first is spent replace it with the second then prepare a fresh second bath. Simply stated, the silver complexes that build up in the first get cleared from the paper in the second.

Even an archival washer may not rid the paper of fix in 30 minutes. The best way to make sure is to use a residual hypo test solution.

 

[ann]

i would be careful with a one minute fix unless your counting sq. inches and using a 1:3 ratio.

 

[SaulB]

Regarding the wash stage, can't you leave the prints in the bath in a tray with the water running? The prints are fixed so they don't have to stay in the darkroom.

Maybe hook up an archival washer to the tap?

 

[Larry.Manuel]

Bathtub FB wash.

Leaving the FB prints in the bathtub, overnight, with no flow has worked for me. Also: 2 fix stages have many times saved me from using exhausted fix - at least in the second tray.

And I use film-strength fix for paper.

 

[mjs]

The two differences between RC and fiber paper are the plastic coating on RC paper, which prevents much solution from penetrating into the paper's fibers. This is why RC paper can be washed clean much more quickly than can fiber paper. The other difference is that some RC papers incorporate developer or developer agents into the emulsion, which lets them develop much more quickly. I don't know of any fiber paper which incorporates developer, although I'm sure there is some out there somewhere. Thus, a lot of RC paper can be developed in a minute, while in the same developer at the same dilution, a lot of fiber papers would need two or three minutes.

A rinse in wash aid cuts 'way down on the wash time for fiber paper; in half at least. Without it, a decent wash could easily take an hour or more; with it, 15 to 30 minutes, depending on your water, how often it exchanges, etc. So, while you don't absolutely have to have a wash aid, it really speeds things up.

Mike

 

[dancqu]

i would be careful with a one minute fix unless your counting
sq. inches and using a 1:3 ratio.

Counting sq. inches is NOT a test of the fixer. Individuals
vary in their use of fixers. Also, fixer demand varies across
a selection of papers. Dan

 

[c.w.]

Thank you for all the responses. As for switching to single tray - i already use it for 11x14s and 16x20s (especially now that i actually have a tray instead of using my highly sophisticated five gallon bucket rotary processor). So, from what i'm reading, i should expect a workflow something more like this:

3-5 minutes developer
30 second stop bath
1:30 fix
leave prints in the water bucket until i'm finished printing for the day
clean up the trays
hypo-clear for however long the package says
Then the wash, probably in a tray upstairs in the sink/shower (depending on the print size) changing the water at 10 minutes, then 30 minutes, then another 30 minutes.

Regarding stop and hypo-clear how long do they last? I ask so i don't buy a gigantic bottle and then have to throw it out from disuse.

 

[Paul Sorensen]

Regarding stop and hypo-clear how long do they last? I ask so i don't buy a gigantic bottle and then have to throw it out from disuse.

Stop has an indicator and really does not go bad with time, so you just use it till the color changes. I would recommend just getting a small bottle, it does last a long time.

The hypo clear will have instructions on it regarding how many prints you can put through per quart. Follow those instructions carefully. For example, I use Zonal Pro Archival Rinse, it specifies that a gallon of stock will do 100 fiber 8X10 prints. That would be about 50 11X14 prints or 25 16X20s. However, this particular product is diluted a lot and you only use 2 oz of concentrate for a gallon of working solution. My 16 oz bottle will make up 8 gallons of working solution. Check the package for other brands.