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Donald Qualls

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I've been posting for a while about shooting pano on 35mm loaded into a 220 back for my RB67.

Most medium format cameras can do some version of this trick -- get a couple (now fairly cheap, or almost free if you have a 3D printer) spool adapters to mount a 35mm cassette in place of a 120 spool, cover up any red frame counter windows (if present), optionally adjust frame counter hardware to deal with film thinner than the film+backing paper of 120, optionally add a frame gate to cover the 35mm sprocket holes and/or help hold the film flat, optionally mask the viewfinder for the new frame size/shape...

I've been slowly working my way toward a really practical way of doing this with my RB67. It has about the same frame width as an Xpan, and very similar focal lengths available (90, 65, and 50 are the wide angle lenses, along with a much more costly 37 mm fisheye). I've got a 3D printed frame gate replacement designed for 35mm film, a roll of cine leader film to use with a second cassette, working toward minimizing film waste due to the long strip that gets exposed when loading without backing paper, a 220 roll holder that will handle the full length of a 135-36 without freewheeling -- really, the only thing I'm missing for field reloads at this point is some way to cut the film near the supply cassette to eliminate needing a changing bag or darkroom to unload (and I'm working on figuring that out).

The RB67 is a lot heavier than an Xpan, but literally thousands of dollars less expensive, with replacement bodies, roll holders, viewfinders, and lenses readily available and no electronics to fail unrepairably without warning.

The latest step here is covering the widest of the Xpan's lenses -- there's apparently a (fairly rare, quite expensive) 35 mm lens for the Xpan, fully rectilinear and with even coverage over the 24x70 frame. The widest rectilinear lens for the RB67 is the 50 mm.

However, recently, I acquired this front-mount conversion lens, a 0.46x wide angle converter for 77 mm filter thread. I expected to see significant vignetting and find it useless for the full 6x7 frame, but hoped that would be limited enough to make the lens practical to use on a 24mm high frame. For $40, it was worth the experiment; worst case, I could mount i on my 90 mm and have the equivalent of a 40 mm, and be pretty confident it would cover fully.

Today, however, I had time to mount the auxiliary lens on my 50 mm, and was amazed to find it fully covering the viewfinder, at least, without any visible drop-off or unsharpness (of course, for the latter especially, processed film is the only real test -- working on it). On a 50 mm, this gives an effective focal length of 23 mm -- not "like a 23 mm on 35mm film" but 50 x 0.45 = (rounded) 23 mm on frames up to 6x8! That's equivalent to about 11 mm on the 35mm frame, fully rectilinear! It even looks wide when I'm visualizing the masked frame (don't yet have a viewfinder mask made up); by my calculation, it should be about 106 degrees corner to corner, on a camera setup that can be recreated for well under $1000 (compared to $3500 to $5000 for an Xpan).

The conversion lens is pretty light and fairly thin, and came with a protective pouch and front and rear caps; not bad for forty bucks. One tradeoff is that, probably to design out vignetting, the front ring on the converter is larger than the rear thread, so I can't use my 77 mm filters on this lens, but I'm sure I can pick up inexpensive filters from the same sources where I got the filters I keep with my RB67 and my Kiev 4.
 

awty

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Hard to imagine it wouldn't cause some distortion and increased flare. Guess we won't know till you post pictures using it.

If you roll your own fim you can just use a longer leader and reuse.

I was going to use mine on my plaubel 6x9 film back with a 65mm angulon lens.

IMG_20211114_140832.jpg
 

NB23

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Why a xpan cannot be switched for a RB67 is in its portability and extreme ease of use. Think Leica style shooting, but easier.

I believe that Zero of my good Xpan shots could have been made with a RB67. Zero because all my work is done on the fly with the camera around my neck on in my hand while walking around erratically.

If the format was the only goal above all else, well, I’d be using the RB67 full frame and crop to taste later: square, zigzag, pano, round, whatever.

using a RB67 as a XPAN competitor is like using a Speedgraphic 4x5 with a 120 rollfilm back: painstaking and painful for what would be a breeze with any mf camera... :smile:
 

Cholentpot

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Why a xpan cannot be switched for a RB67 is in its portability and extreme ease of use. Think Leica style shooting, but easier.

I believe that Zero of my good Xpan shots could have been made with a RB67. Zero because all my work is done on the fly with the camera around my neck on in my hand while walking around erratically.

If the format was the only goal above all else, well, I’d be using the RB67 full frame and crop to taste later: square, zigzag, pano, round, whatever.

using a RB67 as a XPAN competitor is like using a Speedgraphic 4x5 with a 120 rollfilm back: painstaking and painful for what would be a breeze with any mf camera... :smile:

I use my Century Graphic as a competitor to an Xpan. 6x9 or 6x7 holder with some 35mm rolled through, or even 16mm. It does the job, it's not too heavy and it's much cooler looking.
 

NB23

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I just think the problem is the xpan itself, its very existence.
By omitting to name the xpan when talking about transforming other cameras into panoramic cameras, everything is fine and helpful. Useful information and good photography is showcased.

But if it’s about (or as soon as it becones about) rivaling the xpan, then it always quickly ends up being a clear showcase as to why the xpan is such a great system that bulldozes the entire competition.

We tend to forget that the xpan was borne out of sheer necessity to make things simpler, to break away from the unbearable messy clunk, yes the problem is price, unfortunately. But one thing is for sure, the xpan has proven to be very reliable. I wouldn’t hesitate to buy one.
 

radiant

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I think Donald has two problems:

- changing films without dark bag -> solution: buy few extra film backs (muuuuch cheaper than xpan)
- camera not being xpan -> buy xpan, there is no real 1:1 alternative

RB67 has awesome focus screen and ability to shoot both panorama and "normal" mixed. I would actually shoot the panoramic photos on 120 and then have possibility to crop and change the "panorama" factor. Foma 100 for the win :smile:
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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I could buy a used car for what it would cost to buy an Xpan, and even if it works when I unbox it, it might fail without warning (and the electronics are not repairable any longer). I already have the RB67 -- economically, there's no question.

Extra 220 backs run around $100 each. For about that same money I could buy a bulk roll of XP2 or TMY, 32 GB of RAM for my computer, almost a dozen rolls of most 120 films (or nearly 20 of .EDU Ultra). Once I have the 220 back fully converted, I can treat it like any other roll film back.

I agree, I won't know for certain what I'll have for results until I have film processed, and that's a couple weeks out any way I slice it (load and shoot a roll one weekend, process and scan no sooner than the next) due to my limited free time.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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Just get a fuji g617 or gx617 and be done with it.

Once again -- I've already got the RB67. Yes, medium format would be preferred -- but for a lot less money I can get or make a 6x12 back for my Speed or Graphic View II.
 

Sirius Glass

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You can do what ever you want Don. Anyone can go to a shop and buy a camera, takes skill and creativity to make something them selves from bits and pieces.

Buying cameras makes me happy.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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Buying cameras makes me happy.

Buying cameras makes me stressed -- because my experience is that I'll need that money for something (like a car repair, vet bill, etc.) not long after I spend it.
 

Sirius Glass

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I have the WideLux F7. When I have not used it for long periods, I either have to sent it in for a CLA or cock and fire the shutter over one hundred times so that the lubricant does not cause banding. Since I do not often use the camera, this feature inhibits it use unless I am going to shoot a lot of film for a while.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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The parts film back arrived yesterday, to donate the spring I lost while trying to install the 35mm frame mask on my 220 back -- that may or may not be completed this weekend. However, I did get out today to shoot film with the 0.46x converter on my 50 mm lens; I used a Graflex 23 back, which ought to give what I'd get with a much more expensive 6x8 back (caveat: no dark slide or double exposure interlock on the Graflex backs). Downside is, only eight frames instead of nine; I don't think that's a big deal.

As noted previously, this lens combination, effectively 23 mm, appears to be fully rectilinear and sharp in the viewfinder, and now I've got a roll of Portra 400 and one of Ultra 400 that (once processed) will help me verify that (to the most extreme corners the camera body and rotating back unit will permit). On a 6x8 frame, it should be roughly like a 10-11 mm lens on 35mm full frame.
 

mtjade2007

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I have a Camerz long roll portrait camera with a 75 - 150 zoom lens mounted with a 77 mm 0.5 diopter in the front of the lens. I just realized the diopter is in fact a front mount wide angle converter. I got very excited about this. I have a 55 mm lens for my P67-ii. I guess with this diopter I probably can convert my 55 mm wide angle lens to 28 mm as well. I guess I could mount it in front of a few more P67 lenses too. Its thickness is the same of a standard filter. I will take out my p67-ii and see how it looks visually.
 

mtjade2007

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It turns out the Camerz diopter is not a wide angle converter despite it has a .5 number on the ring. I looked through my P67-ii with the 55 mm lens. It turns out the diopter is a close up filter only. It only allows my 55 mm lens to focus closer to the object, as close as 10 inches. This has me puzzled. Apparently this lens still has the same view angel of a 55 mm lens. But I can shoot as close as 10 inches away from the object. I don't understand why the view angle is not wider. The Camerz diopter is weird. I guess it can be used as a closeup adapter only.
 

reddesert

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I think you have a +0.5 diopter closeup lens (which is a convex lens), not an 0.5x wide angle front converter.
 

mtjade2007

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Well, I am getting more puzzled. My 55 mm lens without the diopter can focus as close as 10 inches too. So the diopter is useless for closeup. I found that the diopter actually makes my 55 mm lens's infinity focus distance to about 3 meters. I won't be able to shoot objects far away any more. This is funny. Why would anyone want to use such an adapter?
 

mtjade2007

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I think you have a +0.5 diopter closeup lens (which is a convex lens), not an 0.5x wide angle front converter.
Yes, It is a closeup adapter. I again found that it allows my 55 mm lens to focus about 1" closer than without it. But in terms of infinity focusing, I can only focus only about 3 meter far.
 

reddesert

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This is kind of off topic for this thread, but generally, the effect of a closeup diopter is greater on longer focal length lenses; the effect of an extension tube is greater on shorter focal length lenses.

Your lens is a simple lens with focal length about 2 meters (focal length in meters = 1/diopter number), which means that when the main lens is focused at infinity, with the diopter it will be focused at about 2 meters (not always exactly 2 meters due to minor subtleties).
 

mtjade2007

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You are right. I tried it on my 120 mm lens and found that it does allow me to focus about 2/3 of the original shortest focus distance. It also make the lens sharper at such close distance. So it is useful after all. Sorry that my question turns out to go off topic.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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Well, I am getting more puzzled. My 55 mm lens without the diopter can focus as close as 10 inches too. So the diopter is useless for closeup. I found that the diopter actually makes my 55 mm lens's infinity focus distance to about 3 meters. I won't be able to shoot objects far away any more. This is funny. Why would anyone want to use such an adapter?

The effect of a low-value diopter like that is almost negligible at close distance. To calculate how the lens will affect your actual focus vs. the focus on the scale, you'd convert the scale figure to diopter, add the filter diopter value, then convert back to distance. Conveniently, +1 diopter is a focal length of 1 meter, and in general diopter strength = 1 / (focal length in meters).

As an example, if you set the lens focus scale to, say, 1 meter (= +1 diopter), then screw on the +0.5 filter, you'd have a net 1.5 diopter (= 2/3 m or about 67 cm), but if your scale reads 10 inches (= 25 cm = +4 diopter) adding 0.5 would only bring you to +4.5 diopter = 22.2 cm = ~8.5 inches. So that filter pulls your infinity in to 2 m, but your closest focus only a couple centimeters (close to an inch, in fact). Normally, for macro use (which is what those positive diopters are mainly for) you'd use values from +1 up to +4, though when they're sold in sets they sometimes include +0.5 and often +10 (the latter of limited use, but these things are relatively cheap to produce).

By comparison, the wide angle (and similar tele) adapters that screw on the filter ring are always "afocal" -- that is, they won't focus light to an image or contribute any diopter strength, positive or negative, to the lens. Instead, they do a little optical trickery with surfaces (they're usually two even three elements, usually cemented in a single group in my experience) to widen or narrow the field of view without affecting either the effective inlet pupil (=> f stop) or the focus setting. And because of this, they work equally well with fast or slow lenses, and with long or short focal length (at least within the limit of vignetting by the converter's barrel).

That diopter you got with the Camerz was probably intended to allow portrait focus (around 2 m) with the lens set at infinity, which is often the best performance setting (especially for a zoom). Apparently someone at some point decided the loss of performance from focusing the lens to 2 m was greater than that from the diopter filter (in fairness, the lower diopter the less aberrations it introduces, and in controlled light internal reflections aren't usually a big deal). Even in the film era, commercial portrait studios often worked with a fixed setup -- lights always in the same place, camera on a set spot and all settings preset -- to ensure that the "photographer" (who might have been delivering pizza for a living the previous month) need only be concerned with the focus string (string on the sitter's nose, done) and sitter's position and expression -- which is much faster to train than all the technical details of lighting, focus, etc. Given they used strobes, the settings they had to know were "lens at the little lazy 8, aperture ring at 5.6, sitter's nose at the knot on the string." Half an hour to learn to load and unload the long rolls (46 mm for decades, possibly 35mm unperfed late in the game), half an hour to learn which light stand goes on which floor-taped spot, and half an hour to learn the standard positions and sitter gaze points to put light and shade in the right parts of the face and the catch light correctly positioned in the eyes. "Okay, son, now you're a portrait photographer. You're visiting four schools tomorrow. See you Thursday."
 

mtjade2007

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Thanks, Donald. I never used a diopter before but do have 2X telephoto extenders for my P67-ii and 35mm cameras. I mistakenly thought a 0.5 diopter is a 1/2X wide angle converter. Very wrong obviously. Your information about diopters is great. I did find that when I mount the 0.5 diopter to my P67 120mm soft focus lens the lens focus better (sharper) at close focus distance. This is a great discovery to me because I often use the 120 mm lens for closeup shots. You pano project is very interesting. Hope to hear more of your progress. Have a great holiday season.
 

Kodachromeguy

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X-Pan update: a kind friend in town loaned me his spectacular X-Pan version 1 and it's 3 lenses. But it is behaving erratically. One roll of Kodak film wound to the end and then correctly counted down as I took exposures. Two other rolls would not count down. I do not know if there was too much friction in the cassettes or some sensor in the camera was not counting the sprocket holes. A fourth roll of film, a Tri-x, advanced to the end and is now working correctly. I will have to assess how it goes over the next few weeks. This camera had not been used in over 10 years, according to my friend.

Oh, but I love that wide view. The 30 mm lens is just amazing, but a bit challenging to use because you have so much foreground on the bottom.
 
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