another great kodak color paper bites the dust - Ultra RIP

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

First, I would like to say that Kodak is among the best in publishing lists of cancelled products. Ultra has not appeared on any list so far.

Second, I would like to add that most other companies do not pre-announce product cancellations or closings. If they did, no one would buy the existing stocks. This is a near axiom of commercial sales conducted by all companies.

Third, I have not heard from my friend yet.

Fourth, if you are that worried, learn Japanese. It isn't that hard.

PE

eclarke · Dec 7, 2007

frotog said:
Portra Endura was discontinued about two months ago. This is official. From my conversations with the help at kodak and multiple cross referencing of emulsion codes it appears as though the last batch of portra ran about a half year back. So the stuff at the stores is probably still good. If you want to make sure see if the retailer will give you the first 6 digits of the emulsion code (on the label of the short end of the box). If you call kodak professional they can date it for you.

From the research I've done it appears as though the last batch of kodak ultra ran in May 2006. If you don't mind dingy whites I suppose you can work with it. No one I spoke to at kodak professional could say for sure whether or not a batch of ultra ran after May 2006. If anyone has news to the contrary please let me know!

PE is partially right in saying that it was discontinued because no one was using it. But in fact every professional analogue printer I know used ultra and portra when the contrast of supra wouldn't cut it. But as c-printers scrap their enlargers for laser light and analogue becomes more and more a thing of the past what need is there for different contrast grades in ra paper? Just adjust the curve in photoshop right? When a giant ship is sinking you jettison the stuff that's not essential. This is the terrible truth at EK.

And for those who are looking at websites or calling their dealers and inquiring as to availability of said two products don't be fooled - it is the remainder of stock and once it's gone it's gone for good.

My question now is what about the fate of Supra? Will it undergo further changes i.e. optimized for digital exposure?

I think that orders to Kodak for analog products are extremely volatile now, dealers don't want to get stuck with products and are keeping inventories low, ordering just when they must. Go to Calumet and look at the sparsely filled film coolers. I think most people at Kodak want the business to stay alive and end up making bitter last-minute decisions to discontinue products. My brother in law was Tech Services director at Anitech which was GAF/Ansco and had 30 years there. Anitech made graphic arts film and when sales ended it was sudden. Photographic film and paper will just be one more product America can't make....EC

srs5694 · Dec 7, 2007

I went to the B&H Web site this morning to order a few things and ran across this page for Kodak lens cleaning tissue, which B&H claims has been discontinued. I was thinking about making a mock "doom and gloom" post about it ("I've always been a fan of Kodak lens cleaning tissue!", "Kodak is abandoning all lenses!", etc.), but I figured slipping this post into an existing thread would do. ;-)

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

Well, I have gotten this information from unofficial Kodak sources. Kodak Supra and Ultra are still in production, but Portra has been discontinued. A new paper has also been added to the line. This is reflected in the URL I posted above but is now confirmed. The Kodak web site is 100% correct.

Therefore, the original post is totally in error for whatever reason.

I consider my information, although unofficial, to be definitive. Also, as far as I'm concerned, there should be NO outdated paper in the hands of reputable dealers and none should be offered for sale.

I feel that this subject is closed.

PE

jd callow · Dec 7, 2007

Has Anyone else called Kodak to confirm the status of Ultra? From what Ron is saying I'm suspicious...

langedp · Dec 7, 2007

jd callow said:
Has Anyone else called Kodak to confirm the status of Ultra? From what Ron is saying I'm suspicious...

Well, I just got off the phone with the Kodak Professional Products Support Line. The Endura Ultra product line is still in production, however they have discontinued many of the sheet sizes and some of the roll sizes. He confirmed that 11x14, 16x20 and 20x24 sizes in the N surface have been discontinued. His catalog is listing Endura Supra as an alternative. It looks like the 20" roll in the N surface is still available. I didn't have him check the other finishes.

frotog · Dec 7, 2007

I just now got off the phone with Kodak professional ext. 19 (professional paper media division). I called on the assumption that the original person I spoke to got it wrong as I'm sure PE's connections go right up the chain of command to the decider himself. And once again I got the same response - Ultra is unavailable in both N and F surfaces. If a supplier attempts to purchase ultra he is told it is unavailable. If the supplier then asks when will it be made available he is told there are no plans to manufacture this product in the future. The kodak rep has been given directions to sell the supplier Supra as the alternative to the now unavailable Ultra. The only difference between "unavailable" and "discontinued" in kodak parlance has to do with whether or not the deceased product makes it to the "official discontinuance list". Until it makes this list the product appears in their data as "still in production". Evidently Kodak laid off their website manager at the same time they closed some of their coating factories as Portra didn't make this list either. It's a shame as you'd think they'd give these two papers an honest obit on their official list instead of leading us to believe they're alive and kicking in the film fridge at all your favorite suppliers' stores. So yes, PE, if you want to go along with Kodak's official albeit equivocal position - Ultra is still available! (and Iraq had WMD's!) That's all for me...anyone who feels the need to verify this info or just wants to hear some canned xmas music over the phone be my guest - 1-800-242-2424 ext. 19. More importantly, for all of you who are thinking of buying that last box of ultra in the fridge - CHECK THE DATE...IT'S EXPIRED.

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

The information I got is identical to langedp, and the information frotog has posted is counter to the information I have gotten. I have sent this information on to top management at Kodak.

Portra is not listed as a product on the web site and the site manager was not laid off. The information on the web site agrees with langedp and what I learned today. In fact, I learned a lot more than I have posted, but it all confirms that Ultra is still being produced along with Supra. So, if it was cancelled, it was cancelled after about 12:00 noon here on the east coast of the US, because that is when I got my phone call from my unofficial source. At the time of the call, it was still in production.

One thing that does interest me is the fact that Kodak does not put an expiration date as such on any color paper. I have many boxes of Endura here, and none of them have expiration dates on them. They have emulsion numbers which can be checked for coating date by calling Kodak. So, I cannot check the date of my paper except by calling Kodak.

I have Supra III paper coated in the 90s, and over 10 years old that is still good. Endura is supposed to keep even better. I don't have any that old, but I'll let you know when I test it 10 years from now, if I have any left.

PE

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

When two people supposedly call the same company and ask for information about the same product and get two different answers, there is either a possible error or a misunderstanding or whatever.

When a third party is in contact with the same organization through more direct means but unofficially and gets the same answer as one of those parties, then this reinforces the possibility of something going awry.

I have been told that this will be investigated at the highest levels to get to the source of this, but I have been assured that Ultra is in the current production lineup.

Since the story told to me is exactly what langedp reports and is also in agreement with the website, I don't know what to say except to urge those interested in calling Kodak to get the answer and report the NAMES of the individuals you talk to. I cannot give names for obvious reasons, but both langedp and frotog can, as theirs are official sources and mine are unofficial.

I can only add that the web site as you view it is done by the office of information, and that is one of the offices I still have contact with officially. So, I have not only raised inquiries via the Professional Products Division but also back to the OI at Kodak. That is the best I can do.

PE

langedp · Dec 7, 2007

PE,

I have to assume from my call to Kodak that they were consolidating package variations (stock keeping units or SKU's) because of the lower demand for some of the SKU's (like cut sheet sizes). He said he had no information that Ultra paper was no longer in production. You had to ask about specific SKU's for him to answer whether that size was still available. He indicated for example that 11" inch rolls of N surface were no longer available but 20" rolls were. Looks like Kodak is trying to shift to rolls and only a few widths to minimize the variety of inventory they keep. Just like any other manufacturer should be doing. SKU's = $$

Dave

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

Dave;

Yes, I was also told the same thing. I believe that there are only 2 surfaces or maybe 1 of Ultra now available, just as the sizes of Metallic have been reduced. But, what I can say is that what I was told almost exactly matched, word for word, what you posted. You and I went through two 'doors' but ended up in the same place. OTOH, frotog's statement is entirely at odds with that as is his 'dire warning'. I went through another 'door' today as a check, but it was too late in the day and so I will not have an answer until next week.

I've seen too many incorrect comments here due to misunderstandings. IDK what is going on. I have a feeling that we can discount frotog due to the 3:1 correlation (including the web site). And, knowing that there is still a manager of the web site, I can be even more certain that frotog's asessment is incorrect for one reason or another.

PE

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

I would like to add on a different tack that it is not unlikely that Ultra may be discontinued or be under consideration for being dropped due to declining sales. This would not be known by any of my 'sources' until a day or so before it happens. Usually, when things like that happened at EK, we got 1 - 2 days advanced notice from a VP or whomsomever. A 'drop dead date' would be in the announcement as would information about the reassignment of the people involved.

PE

dslater · Dec 7, 2007

Why are sales of RA-4 paper also declining? I thought these papers were used for producing prints from digital images.

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

One interesting result of a Kodak survey that I heard of is that fewer people get prints today. They prefer getting digital images (analog -> digital or direct digital) and viewing them on a computer.

This has reduced the amount of analog paper consumed.

PE

srs5694 · Dec 7, 2007

Some photofinishers also use inkjet or other technologies to produce prints. (This is true of a local CVS minilab, for instance.) I don't know how much this has cut into RA-4 paper sales, but it must have made some impact. Similarly, anybody who prints photos at home digitally, using an inkjet printer, will not be using RA-4 paper to make the prints.

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

Interestingly, almost everyone has photo quality printers, but few choose to make photo quality prints. That is the percentage of prints being made is down overall.

Reversal films are way down. The computer or TV screen are replacing the slide show.

One friend of mine has a huge HDTV. He also has a stero attachment for his digital cameras. He therefore takes stereo images and projects them on his HDTV and you can see stero. He also prints them digitally and has an old fashioned wooden viewer so that we can view his prints in stereo.

PE

dslater · Dec 7, 2007

srs5694 said:
Some photofinishers also use inkjet or other technologies to produce prints. (This is true of a local CVS minilab, for instance.) I don't know how much this has cut into RA-4 paper sales, but it must have made some impact. Similarly, anybody who prints photos at home digitally, using an inkjet printer, will not be using RA-4 paper to make the prints.

Are you sure of this? I thought all the minilabs produced RA-4 prints - film goes in one end and RA-4 prints come out the other. I believe that RA-4 prints are actually cheaper than inkjet prints once you figure in the cost of ink for the inkjet.

dslater · Dec 7, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
One interesting result of a Kodak survey that I heard of is that fewer people get prints today. They prefer getting digital images (analog -> digital or direct digital) and viewing them on a computer.

This has reduced the amount of analog paper consumed.

PE

This makes very little sense to me - I'm not disputing your claim, I just don't understand people's reasoning on this. It seems like such a pain to have to start up the computer, then have everyone sit around it to view low resolution pictures. It's so much easier to pass prints around a room.

Dan

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 7, 2007

dslater said:
This makes very little sense to me - I'm not disputing your claim, I just don't understand people's reasoning on this. It seems like such a pain to have to start up the computer, then have everyone sit around it to view low resolution pictures. It's so much easier to pass prints around a room.

Dan

Well, maybe people don't spend so much time together anymore. Families are much more mobile and dispersed. More people go off to college and leave the place they grew up than they used to. People work longer hours in service industries where they have a computer. So they stay in touch by e-mail and post pictures on Picasa, Flickr or some such.

srs5694 · Dec 7, 2007

dslater said:
srs5694 said:

Some photofinishers also use inkjet or other technologies to produce prints. (This is true of a local CVS minilab, for instance.)

Click to expand...

Are you sure of this? I thought all the minilabs produced RA-4 prints - film goes in one end and RA-4 prints come out the other. I believe that RA-4 prints are actually cheaper than inkjet prints once you figure in the cost of ink for the inkjet.

I'm 100% positive that some photofinishers are using non-RA-4 technologies. I'm about 95% sure that at least some of these are inkjet printers. There may be other technologies in use, too. That said, RA-4 prints are also common; my local Walgreens uses a Fuji Frontier that produces RA-4 prints, for instance. I prefer to use them to get digital prints, in part for this reason and in part because my local CVS produces poor results.

In the case of the CVS, you can order digital prints at kiosks, and they shoot out of a slot in the kiosk itself in seconds, with whirring noises similar to those an inkjet printer makes coming from the kiosk as it works. Examining the print with a loupe reveals lines like those on inkjet prints. The local Walgreens and its Frontier machine produces better results, and examination under a loupe reveals no streaky lines, but they take longer -- 30-60 minutes, typically.

dslater · Dec 7, 2007

srs5694 said:
I'm 100% positive that some photofinishers are using non-RA-4 technologies. I'm about 95% sure that at least some of these are inkjet printers. There may be other technologies in use, too. That said, RA-4 prints are also common; my local Walgreens uses a Fuji Frontier that produces RA-4 prints, for instance. I prefer to use them to get digital prints, in part for this reason and in part because my local CVS produces poor results.

In the case of the CVS, you can order digital prints at kiosks, and they shoot out of a slot in the kiosk itself in seconds, with whirring noises similar to those an inkjet printer makes coming from the kiosk as it works. Examining the print with a loupe reveals lines like those on inkjet prints. The local Walgreens and its Frontier machine produces better results, and examination under a loupe reveals no streaky lines, but they take longer -- 30-60 minutes, typically.

Hmm - I see, the kiosk is not really a minilab - does the CVS still do 1 hour photo processing? If so, I would think the prints you get back from the processor would still be RA-4.

dslater · Dec 7, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
Well, maybe people don't spend so much time together anymore. Families are much more mobile and dispersed. More people go off to college and leave the place they grew up than they used to. People work longer hours in service industries where they have a computer. So they stay in touch by e-mail and post pictures on Picasa, Flickr or some such.

Well - it's true that families may be more dispersed now, but we still get together with friends and such - I don't think we've become a society of recluses.

Dan

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 7, 2007

I think inkjet is just slower technology than RA-4 for producing prints in quantity. It makes sense for a kiosk printing one-offs to use inkjet, but to print stacks of 36 or a CF-card full of prints, wet processing is faster.

langedp · Dec 7, 2007

dslater said:
Why are sales of RA-4 paper also declining? I thought these papers were used for producing prints from digital images.

This thread was originally about Endura Ultra paper, not all RA-4 papers. Ultra is a high contrast pro grade paper that the mini-labs don't use. It's more for custom jobs and high end labs, not Walmart. Kodak still makes consumer grade RA-4 papers for the minilabs.

Dave

Photo Engineer · Dec 7, 2007

Ultra was once the staple of the photofinisher to give high contrast snappy images.

OTOH, people often have their computers on all day and when guests drop in they bring up the latest pictures. And, Kiosks do digital prints.

PE

another great kodak color paper bites the dust - Ultra RIP

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another great kodak color paper bites the dust - Ultra RIP

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