(Another) First run with C-41 thread... need help tho

Kirks518 · Feb 19, 2015

The other night I finally took the dive into DIY C-41 developing, using the Unicolor kit. All things considered, I'm pretty pleased, albeit, the results are pretty bad. I shot an expired roll of Reala at 100 ASA as a test. I really didn't want to use a fresh roll as my developing test roll, but based on the results, I think I should have. I'm hoping you guys with experience (a lot or a little) can help me figure out why my results were poor.

The things I did right;
Temp was at 102.7°F at the start, and 102.1°F when I finished, so my temps were spot on. I did this in a water filled tub in the shower, so I'm pretty happy.
Agitation was 4 inversions (Paterson tank) every 30 secs, and I was extraordinarily consistent with it.
No cross-contamination of chemicals. Each of the 3 chemicals had their own measuring cups, mixing vessels, mixing spoons (wire whisks), and storage containers (all new).

What I did not so great;
Used long expired (1994) film
I didn't take the pour in and pour out times into consideration, so I think I overdeveloped? ie, I started the 3:30 developer time after I poured the developer in, and didn't pour it out until the 3:30 was completed.

The negatives themselves really don't have any "color" variation to them. You can see that in the attached. They almost look like B&W negatives, but once scanned, there is color. When I compare these to another roll from the same batch, the base of the negs I developed is much darker then the lab developed negatives. I assume this is because of my screw up on the pour times? How much of the below problems would this account for?

You can see the scan (without any adjustments) is very flat, somewhat faded looking, and have a definite green color cast. Would this be more likely due to the film being old, or related more to the developing time (or something else in the developing process)?

And lastly, the third image is with some enhancements, to show the left and right edges that have a lighter, bluish cast to them. Could this also be due to something in the developing process, or is it more likely light leakage from the camera. Camera was a Mamiya M645 that I hadn't used before, but the light seals are newer, not gummy, and complete. I'll be running another test roll of B&W through the camera, but until that's shot and developed, I turn to your guesses.

Negative(s) on laptop white screen;

Uncorrected scan;

Semi-corrected scan with left & right edge issues;

mts · Feb 20, 2015

From the look of it, there is detail (some) in the shadows, or dark hair. You haven't overdeveloped but the expired film normally requires one to derate the ISO. It would be helpful for testing purposes to bracket exposures in 1/2 stop increments to perhaps 1-1/2 stop over. The orange mask is however quite wrong in appearance suggesting a problem with bleach and or fixer. Did you use a stop between the developer and bleach?

I develop in Nikkor tanks in a water bath and start at 102 to finish around 100F with no problems. C-41 is quite forgiving in that regard. Have you checked the pH of the developer? Making it a little on the high side, say 10.2-10.5 will give you more contrast and possibly perk up your negatives, especially for outdated film. With regard to color saturation which appears almost non-existent, how has the old film been stored?

Rudeofus · Feb 20, 2015

We know from photographic B&W paper that both sensitivity and contrast goes down as it ages (even before severe fog starts showing up! ). I think it's a bit unfair to judge the dev kit and your processing based on >20 year old film ...

In my experience these amateur dev kits are very insensitive to minor processing errors, especially of your then scan the negs.

bvy · Feb 20, 2015

First of all, throw out the fractional degrees. Your thermometer's not that accurate, and half a degree one way or the other won't matter. Standard C-41 is 3:15 at 100F. With expired film, I'd have probably bumped that up to 3:45 or 4:15 anyway. Start pouring about fifteen seconds before your intended developing time is up. But even here, a few seconds one way or the other won't matter much.

While this wasn't a wasted exercise, you can't draw very many conclusions with expired film -- at least, not as far as the color correctness or density is concerned. Look for streaks and drying marks and overall consistent development. And use fresh film next time.

I second adding a stop and rinse between developer and bleach steps.

Terry Christian · Feb 20, 2015

Looks like you did everything correctly! A stop between the dev and bleach should get rid of the color variance from left to right, if it isn't due to the film's being expired. You'll also find that the precise color and density of the orange mask will differ among types and ages of film, as well as how wet it is, so don't judge your results based on that.

Kirks518 · Feb 20, 2015

Thanks all.

The film is box rated at 400ASA, and I shot it at 200ASA. Not sure how the film had been stored it's entire life, but a roll of the same film from the same batch gave decent results when developed by a lab. Part of the reason I used this roll was that mistakenly thought the lab developed roll had come out 'perfect', when it fact it was only 'decent'.

So a stop bath? The instructions for the Unicolor C-41 kit don't say to use a stop between developer and Blix, just a wash between Blix and stabilizer. When I do my B&W, I use water. What should I use as a stop here, and for how long?

Sirius Glass · Feb 20, 2015

Try it will fresh film and you will be more successful.

Terry Christian · Feb 20, 2015

Just regular stop bath, like you'd use for B&W film, at the same dilution, and for the same time. The idea is to halt development instantly, and is especially important for such a short total development time.

mts · Feb 21, 2015

Color stop baths include a 2% bisulfite (not bisufate!) along with 2% acetic acid. The purpose for this is to oxidize the color dyes and couplers that combine with residual bleach to result in staining. Please note that blix does not last long after mixing, hence the best route is not to use blix at all. Rather separate bleach and fix with a rinse (to preserve the fix lifetime) in between and an appropriate stop following the developer. The same applies to E-6 with two stop baths one following the first developer and the second one following color developer, and NEVER the two should be interchanged.

bvy · Feb 21, 2015

My stop bath is simple: One part distilled white vinegar (5%) to four parts water -- 30 to 60 seconds with gentle agitation, followed by the same with plain water. Then bleach. I don't use blix either.

Rudeofus · Feb 21, 2015

Kirks518 said:
The film is box rated at 400ASA, and I shot it at 200ASA. Not sure how the film had been stored it's entire life, but a roll of the same film from the same batch gave decent results when developed by a lab. Part of the reason I used this roll was that mistakenly thought the lab developed roll had come out 'perfect', when it fact it was only 'decent'.

Labs are really good at two important things:

Run a highly standardized and reproducible process
Convert even the most underexposed, mishandled, fogged and otherwise damaged negatives into decent looking scans.

Can you tell us whether negative strips look very different? A bit of fog in your home processed negs is ok, but what about the color?

Kirks518 said:
So a stop bath? The instructions for the Unicolor C-41 kit don't say to use a stop between developer and Blix, just a wash between Blix and stabilizer. When I do my B&W, I use water. What should I use as a stop here, and for how long?

That's a common topic with BLIX based kits, many people (including myself) have reported yellow streaks (most visible in blue sky parts of the image) when processing 120 format roll film with these kits. A stop bath after the color developer is usually the key to preventing these streaks.

The artifact I see in the image with your negatives doesn't look like this effect, though, so maybe something else went wrong in your process. Is there a chance that there was a long time interval (> 30 seconds) between you pouring out the color developer and pouring in the BLIX?

Kirks518 · Feb 21, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Labs are really good at two important things:

Run a highly standardized and reproducible process

Convert even the most underexposed, mishandled, fogged and otherwise damaged negatives into decent looking scans.

Can you tell us whether negative strips look very different? A bit of fog in your home processed negs is ok, but what about the color?

My home processed roll from the same batch has a much darker base. I'll try and get a pic of the two different sets posted that shows the base color difference.

Rudeofus said:
That's a common topic with BLIX based kits, many people (including myself) have reported yellow streaks (most visible in blue sky parts of the image) when processing 120 format roll film with these kits. A stop bath after the color developer is usually the key to preventing these streaks.

The artifact I see in the image with your negatives doesn't look like this effect, though, so maybe something else went wrong in your process. Is there a chance that there was a long time interval (> 30 seconds) between you pouring out the color developer and pouring in the BLIX?

Yes, that is certainly a possibility, but I can't say for sure how long it was between developer and Blix.

Rudeofus · Feb 22, 2015

Kirks518 said:
My home processed roll from the same batch has a much darker base. I'll try and get a pic of the two different sets posted that shows the base color difference.

There are many possible reasons for this:

The slow change from color developer to BLIX can give you extra development and as a result fog.
When color developer ages, it becomes more active and could create fog.
Your kit could simply have a more active color developer, giving you potentially higher film speed at the expense of some fog.

All of these could explain extra fog, neither one would explain the low color saturation. The only explanation for lower color saturation (apart from film age) would be massive amounts of retained silver. That would come from incomplete BLIXing:

Did you use an old or overused BLIX?
Could the process temperature have been too low?
Was BLIX time long enough? You can't over-BLIX, but too short BLIX times will cause trouble.

You can easily test for this by re-BLIXing and rewashing a test clip, and if you don't trust you BLIX, you could try a small batch of Farmer's reducer.

Kirks518 said:
Yes, that is certainly a possibility, but I can't say for sure how long it was between developer and Blix.

This can happen if you are overly concerned about accurate BLIX temperature. That's one more incentive for using a stop bath and a wash between color developer and BLIX: temperature of stop bath and wash is uncritical, and you can calmly bring the BLIX to its correct temperature while the film sits in the wash water after the stop bath.

Kirks518 · Feb 22, 2015

The Blix (and the entire kit) were brand new, and mixed just before use. Temps for all the chems were right at 102°F during use. Blix time was 6:30, which is what the instructions call for, but maybe I'll do a Blix clip test tonight on a frame (I missed focus, so it's no good anyway), and see how it goes.

Rudeofus · Feb 22, 2015

You seem to have done it right, but I recommend you try to re-BLIX anyway: errors in color development are usually unfixable, whereas incomplete BLIXing can be trivially fixed by re-BLIXing!

Kirks518 · Feb 23, 2015

I developed another roll last night, of fresh 35mm. Again, I ended up with a significant green cast on the unretouched positive scan. I added a stop bath (3 dump and fills of just water (don't have any 'official' stop)) between the developer and the Blix, and I extended my Blix time by about 30 secs., but obviously that didn't help. I know I've been saying I'll post up some images of the negatives and haven't, but I absolutely will later today or tonight.

I really can't for the life of me imagine that I have contaminated anything, as I used all brand new pitchers for mixing, brand new jugs for storage, and new mixing whisks, one for each of the chemicals, but I'm starting to think that maybe I did screw this up horribly.

The only thing I can possibly think of that went less then perfectly was when I was mixing the Blix, it initially all didn't dissolve, which i noticed as I was pouring from the mixing container to the storage container, but I poured it all back in and re-mixed it.

What's bugging me the most is that as far as i can tell, I've done everything as directed, but it's just not working, so there has to be something not being done right. I keep going over all the steps, etc., but can't come up with anything.

I'm tempted to shoot a roll, and cut it in half. Have my lab do one half, and I do the other half, and see how that goes.

destroya · Feb 23, 2015

my results were substantially better when I went from the tetenal BLIX kit to the kodak SM chems. yes, at first they cost more but the results are far better. you can also use the SM fixer on B&W. teh capacity is much greater, so if you do shoot more it will be cheaper. the fixer and bleach last quite a long time. the developer comes in 4 3L packs, so you can mix smaller amounts than 12L. un-mixed developer lasted me 3+ years and still was fresh.

https://www.uniquephoto.com/kodak-flexicolor-smc-41smtank-developer-for-color-negative-film-m-2l

Rudeofus · Feb 23, 2015

Looking at the MSDS of this kit, they seem to have made substantial compromises to make their kit a true powder kit: Ammonium Thiosulfate is very stable as 60% solution, but not so much as powder (as used in BLIX part A). In addition, a decent C-41/E-6 BLIX should use Ammonium Ferric EDTA, not Sodium Ferric EDTA (as used in BLIX part B).

If I stated "extend BLIX time", I didn't mean "add 30 seconds", but more along the line of "double it", especially given that fact that this BLIX is formulated less than optimally. You don't have to expend another roll of film on this, just re-BLIX, rewash and re-STAB one of these negative strips. It can't hurt them, only improve things. Only if double the BLIX time doesn't give you improved results, should we look at the color developer.

One more thing: if I interpret your postings correctly, you compare a properly adjusted lab scan to your own scan. I can't wrap my head around the statement "my negatives have green cast", because it's the scanner software which gives you the color balance you get. If your negs look green, adjust the color balance in your scanner software. If you have color cross over, either adjust it in your scanner software (if it can do that), or do it in post.

Sirius Glass · Feb 23, 2015

Kirks518 said:
I developed another roll last night, of fresh 35mm. Again, I ended up with a significant green cast on the unretouched positive scan. I added a stop bath (3 dump and fills of just water (don't have any 'official' stop)) between the developer and the Blix, and I extended my Blix time by ...

You need REAL stop bath to cut the cross contamination. Water alone will not do it for you.

Kirks518 · Feb 23, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Looking at the MSDS of this kit, they seem to have made substantial compromises to make their kit a true powder kit: Ammonium Thiosulfate is very stable as 60% solution, but not so much as powder (as used in BLIX part A). In addition, a decent C-41/E-6 BLIX should use Ammonium Ferric EDTA, not Sodium Ferric EDTA (as used in BLIX part B).

If I stated "extend BLIX time", I didn't mean "add 30 seconds", but more along the line of "double it", especially given that fact that this BLIX is formulated less than optimally. You don't have to expend another roll of film on this, just re-BLIX, rewash and re-STAB one of these negative strips. It can't hurt them, only improve things. Only if double the BLIX time doesn't give you improved results, should we look at the color developer.

One more thing: if I interpret your postings correctly, you compare a properly adjusted lab scan to your own scan. I can't wrap my head around the statement "my negatives have green cast", because it's the scanner software which gives you the color balance you get. If your negs look green, adjust the color balance in your scanner software. If you have color cross over, either adjust it in your scanner software (if it can do that), or do it in post.

Got it about the Blix. I'll do that tonight. Interesting stuff you put up there about the chemical make up.

As for the green, when I apply no adjustments to the scan, the green cast is there. The negatives themselves (when just looking at them), have a heavy orange color to them (which I think converts to a green-ish color when flipped to a positive?). This is with one roll of Fuji 120 (Reala), and one roll of Fuji 35mm (NPC 160). I also threw in a generic store brand roll that was in a camera, but that had no images, so I trashed them, but I'll take a closer look at them, and see if there is a cast to them as well.

Thanks for all the ongoing help with this.

Sirius Glass · Feb 23, 2015

Kirks518 said:
Thanks for all the ongoing help with this.

You are getting your money's worth here at APUG.

RPC · Feb 23, 2015

Kirks518 said:
The negatives themselves (when just looking at them), have a heavy orange color to them (which I think converts to a green-ish color when flipped to a positive?).

The heavy orange color is suppose to be there, but the scanning software should largely remove it. But due to film-to-film variances in both the orange color, makeup of the image dyes, scanning software characteristics, etc., you cannot expect to get a perfectly color balanced image. Some tweaking is often necessary.

Rudeofus · Feb 23, 2015

As RPC already mentioned, that orange mask is your friend, and it does not have anything to do with the color cast in your scans.

BTW this orange mask shows up (or at least should show up) as deep black (not green or anything! ), and it becomes less and less visible the more exposure/development an area has seen. Color cast and cross over, if you really have any, comes from the three color layers not developing in lock step.

Kirks518 · Feb 23, 2015

OK, this is in regards to the orange base.

Attached is a pic of two strips of negatives from two different rolls. Both are Fuji Reala, and from the same batch number. The negative on the left was developed at my local lab (not a Walmart/Walgreens etc), and the one on the right was from my first run the other night. The base color of mine is much darker, and more muddied looking. It is the 'excessive' darkening to the orange base that I'm thinking (which always gets me in trouble) is causing the color shift. Any ideas what caused my base to be so much darker? Is this underdevelopment, overdevelopment, stop bath or lack thereof, or does this point back to the Blix? I'll be re-Blixing a strip within the next couple of hours.

The two rolls were developed within 2 months of each other (Dec '14, and Feb '15), if anyone was wondering.

Kirks518 · Feb 23, 2015

Rudeofus - can the re-Blixing be done in the light? I would think so, but I figure I'd ask....

(Another) First run with C-41 thread... need help tho

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