Another film developing question

kjsphoto · Jun 28, 2004

OK,

AS I have been reading more and more I see that with Pyrocat-HD you do not need a chemical stop bath or Hypo-Clearign agent if you use Tf-4 or a Rapid fixer like Ilford.

So my question is that if I use a developer like Rodinal or TMax can I use T4F fixer? Also if I use say Ilford rapid fix do I need a chemical stop bath or will water work and in this case will I need a hypo-clearing agent?

Right now I am using;

TMAx developer - Changing to Rodinal once I run out.
Koday Indicator stop bath ( Do I need this if I use a Rapid fix or TF-4 )
Ilford Rapid Fixer
Koday Hypo Clearing Agent ( Do I need this. If not do I need to wash negs for 30 minutes )
Ilford Wetting agent.

I just am a bit puzzled as I have been reading and notice how with a non-Hardening fixer (TF-4) you do not need a stop or HYPO-clearing agent. But will this hold true for all developers being used?

Any advice is appreciated as I am trying to get my head artound this before I buy chemistry.

I tell you what I learned back in College 15 years didnt teach me anything like this. It was D76, Stop bath (chemical), Fixer, Hypoclearing, wash.

Thanks again,

Kev

ann · Jun 28, 2004

with Tf-4 fixer you do not use an acid stop bath, neither do you use hypo clear. You can use this fixer with all films and papers. You can also use Ilford's rapid fixer.

Neither do you use stop bath with PMK or pryocat-hd, but you do/can with other film developers.

Check Ilfords washing methods you do not need to wash for 30 minutes and they (Ilford donot recommend hypoclear with their films)

Based on your message
Rodinal
stop bath/ or water
rapid fixer
wash
wetting agent

or
rodinal
water wash/no stop bath
TF4 fixer
wash
wetting agent

doughowk · Jun 28, 2004

According to Photographers Formulary's recommendations, you should not user a stop bath or hypo clearing agent with TF-4 fixer, just water. I've used it with both film & paper developers (including dektol, Agfa Neutol, PF130, Sprint) with no apparent problems.

kjsphoto · Jun 28, 2004

How about with Ilfrod Rapid Fix. Can you skip the stop bath and just use a water one instead? It seems that if I use the TF-4 then no problem. I just order the Darkroom and Film Cookbooks today from amazon so I hope these will help clear a lot of this up.

Thanks again,

kev

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 28, 2004

kjsphoto said:
OK,

AS I have been reading more and more I see that with Pyrocat-HD you do not need a chemical stop bath or Hypo-Clearign agent if you use Tf-4 or a Rapid fixer like Ilford.

So my question is that if I use a developer like Rodinal or TMax can I use T4F fixer? Also if I use say Ilford rapid fix do I need a chemical stop bath or will water work and in this case will I need a hypo-clearing agent?

Right now I am using;

TMAx developer - Changing to Rodinal once I run out.
Koday Indicator stop bath ( Do I need this if I use a Rapid fix or TF-4 )
Ilford Rapid Fixer
Koday Hypo Clearing Agent ( Do I need this. If not do I need to wash negs for 30 minutes )
Ilford Wetting agent.

I just am a bit puzzled as I have been reading and notice how with a non-Hardening fixer (TF-4) you do not need a stop or HYPO-clearing agent. But will this hold true for all developers being used?

Any advice is appreciated as I am trying to get my head artound this before I buy chemistry.

I tell you what I learned back in College 15 years didnt teach me anything like this. It was D76, Stop bath (chemical), Fixer, Hypoclearing, wash.

Thanks again,

Kev

You wrote:"I just am a bit puzzled as I have been reading and notice how with a non-Hardening fixer (TF-4) you do not need a stop or HYPO-clearing agent. But will this hold true for all developers being used?"

With regard to the stop bath, for almost all film developers the answer is YES, it holds true. You do not need an acid stop bath

The exceptions are extremely active developers with very short development times (3 minutes or less). It is unlikely that you will be using developers of this type. With fast film, undiluted D76 and high solution temperatures you might encounter this problem, but you can always dilute D76 1:1 or 1:3 and avoid the problem that way (dilution will extend the development time).

It is also true that you do not need to use Hypo Clearing Agent with film. It doesn't hurt to use it, but it increases your washing time. However, it can be helpful for removing the red antihalation dye that Kodak puts into TMX & TMY films.

With regard to washing times, I recommend that you follow Ilford's washing procedure. Here is a link that gives an independent evaluation: http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/5693/photogra.html#fwash

Download the .pdf file, it has a lot of good stuff in it about washing film and prints. You may want to skip the science in the first 6 pages and go to the recommended procedures in pages 7 and 8.

kjsphoto · Jun 28, 2004

Hello Tom,

Thank you very much for the information. One problem I have is that right now I cannot get my cold water out of the tap to drop below 70 deg. F. So if I do a N-1 I can down to about 5 min depending on the film I am using with the TMAX developer.

But it seems fro the above message that TMax is not a fast developing developer unless of course the water is hot then the time increases.

Now for a water stop if I am using trays or even a rotary process do you just put the film in the tray and agitate fro about 30 seconds or will the water itself just stop the processing? And how long do you need to put it in the stop (water) for? For rotary I figure that the drum rolling will give it what it needs.

Also I was searching for the link you mentioned about OLE home brew fixer. DO you know the link and with his home brew would you need a acid stop or hypo clearing or just water.

Thank you again,

Kev

BWGirl · Jun 28, 2004

I use water stop bath & Ilford rapid fixer no problem. Ilford has an interesting water-saving post-fixer bath method as well. Check their website.

Jeanette

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 28, 2004

Kevin, I rinse the film in water for about 1 minute before going into the stop bath. I do the same for both tray and tank processing.

Ole's home brew alkaline fixer bath works just the same as TF-4 and Ilford Rapid Fixer. No stop bath needed and no Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA) needed - just water. Send Ole a PM for his formula (he's an APUG member - with chemical expertise).
For the chemicals to mix Ole's fixer (and other photo chemistry) here are a couple of resources:

Artcraft: http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/
Artcraft will sell you photographic chemicals and will also mix photographic formulas for you.

The Chemistry Store: www.chemistrystore.com/
Another good source for photo chemicals.

kjsphoto · Jun 28, 2004

Thanks will have to PM him. I am a bit confused now. I tought that you go from developer tray to tray of water that is the stop. So above you go into a stop bath? What does the stop bath consist of and how long?

Thanks again,

Kev

eric · Jun 28, 2004

New forum suggestion?

just water. Send Ole a PM for his formula (he's an APUG member - with chemical expertise).

Maybe we can have a new forum here just on chemical recipes? I've always wanted to get the Film and Darkroom cookbook books but I can always find someone who knows something (after a lengthy search). So maybe we can start posting some recipes in a new forum? It'll save me money by not buying the books

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 28, 2004

Sorry for creating confusion, Kevin. My typing fingers got out of synch with my brain.

My sentence should have said: " I rinse the film in water for about 1 minute before going into the FIXING bath."

I do not use a stop bath. Or, if you like, I use a water rinse as my stop bath.

lee · Jun 28, 2004

kjsphoto said:
I am a bit confused now. I tought that you go from developer tray to tray of water that is the stop. So above you go into a stop bath? What does the stop bath consist of and how long?

Thanks again,

Kev

I use the H2O as the stop and don't use the stop bath chemicals at all. Just into the water for a minute and then in the fixer. Confusion is a state of mind where I live almost all the time now days.

lee\c

kjsphoto · Jun 28, 2004

Shew, I thought I misread something. Thanks!

I have one more question and hate to sound like an idiot but here it goes. When you do the rinse to you place the neg in a tray with running water or just put the neg in a tray of water and agitate for a minute?

Thanks again,

Kev

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 28, 2004

I put the neg in a tray of water and agitate for a minute.

kjsphoto · Jun 28, 2004

Thank you very much. This is great as now less chemistry that I have to use.

For now I just need

Dev (Tmax developer almost out and going to try rodinal, pyro)
Water - Stop
Fix
wash.

Thanks,

Kev

lee · Jun 28, 2004

Tom Hoskinson said:
I put the neg in a tray of water and agitate for a minute.

Same here

lee\c

glbeas · Jun 28, 2004

eric said:
Maybe we can have a new forum here just on chemical recipes? I've always wanted to get the Film and Darkroom cookbook books but I can always find someone who knows something (after a lengthy search). So maybe we can start posting some recipes in a new forum? It'll save me money by not buying the books

Sounds like a good idea, or we can simply post the recipes as a short article to make it easier to track down.

gainer · Jun 29, 2004

More years ago than I like to admit, but like to brag about, Edwal fixer concentrate came with a suggestion that you add fixer concentrate directly to the used developer, using both in one-shot manner. I have found that this also works with TF4. You need enouugh head space, if you using a tank, to hold 1/16 of the amount of developer, so you may have to pour out a little developer. This trick comes in handy sometimes when you're on the road and want to see some results before you leave the scene. You carry a tank, a bottle of developer concentrate, a bottle of fixer concentrate and a graduate.

Needless to say, you agitate vigorously after adding the fixer to the developer to get thorough and rapid mixing.

gainer · Jun 30, 2004

Not much, if anything. It is convenient in terms of number of vessels you carry or maintain, and consistent because of the one-shot use. I have not tried it with true stand developing, so I don't know if it has advantages there, but I would be willing to take Tom Hoskinson's word for it.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 30, 2004

I just developed a roll of Kodak TMY 400 in Pat Gainer's PC-TEA developer (Triethanolamine, L-ascorbic acid, phenidone). I used Pat's one-shot fix procedure (TF-4 concentrate). The agitation was gentle, 10 seconds/minute for 9.5 minutes at 70F. I am attaching the densitometry data and curve that resulted (as a PDF file).

I have another roll of 120 TMY exposed under identical conditions. I try it stand developed for 13 minutes and post the results.

JohnFinch · Jul 1, 2004

TF-4 is an alkaline fixer, Ilford rapid fix is an acid fixer.

TF-4, and the other alkaline fixers (tf-3 and archifix to name a couple), are used because

a) They wash out more easily from the film and paper emulsions (good for achival properties) and
b) Because they have less effect on the stain created by staining/tanning developers - Pyro, Pyrocat HD, Dixactol etc.

Not neccesarily in that order

When using an alkaline fixer it is normal/recomended to use just plain water as a stop bath. This keeps the emulsion from acidity stopping stain loss and the possibility of pinholes in film developed with a carbonate accelerator (as some developers have). A plain water stop is just as effective as an acid stop just slightly slower. Hence the post above that points out that, for short developing times, the development has to be stopped rapidly. In that case then, you might use an acid stop. For any other times it is not at all neccesary.

What are we doing when we stop a film? If using plain water then we are diluting the developer so much that it stops working. So I use two 30 second stops of plain water (at developer temp) with constant agitation. If using an acid stop, we are stopping the developer from working because it will not in an acid environment. You can see then that the water stop is slightly slower at stopping the film. At development times of over 5 minutes, this speed of stopping is not important. Just make sure you do it the same everytime..... be consistent.

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