An interview with ADOX's Mirko

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How is a tiny company like ADOX supposed to advertise? Do they even have a Twitter account?

I've read a few books on advertising, and one of the things that's mentioned is maintaining a presence. Like that one photography teacher claiming that film isn't produced anymore, maybe because there's nothing in the local supermarket on the shelves. Holga exists on a similar shoestring budget, and a Google search on "holga" returns 1,300,000 results. A search on "adox film" returns 256,000 results. (No quotes in either search, "film" was added to distinguish between other "adox" things.)

Holga has brand recognition, but ADOX does not.

One of the ADOX products is the CMS II film. Can they effectively advertise that on the web with just a 640x480 image? Of course not. What's needed is a site where those "zoom" image viewers like Zoomify can be used to allow a person to zoom in and out of a picture. Since the only selling point of CMS II is its resolution, why not show it off? There is one 20Mp image on the ADOX site, with no information as to what format was used. I'm guessing that it was 35mm. Also, why not demonstrate a print? "From 35mm, you have to make the print 'this big' to show grain. Got enough wall for that?"

"If you shoot digital, this is how much camera you need to equal this much ADOX film." Something like that.

It's as if film makers are just too timid.
 

PKM-25

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"If you shoot digital, this is how much camera you need to equal this much ADOX film." Something like that.

It's as if film makers are just too timid.

Timid? I don't think so....

I bet the entire marketing budget of the digital hype machine comes in a close second only to a presidential race. So if a film company were to start engaging in ads saying why to use film over digital instead of film based on its own merit....well good luck that one and you might want to duck!
 

Tom1956

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That one went right over my head. And on another note, they're still having presidents? I thought that business closed down 6 years ago.
 

NJH

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It was a war lost by weight of opinions rather than evidence. I found a few year old thread over on dpreview the other day that was a perfect example, it started quoting an old E Puts article, a perfectly valid article and testing which he did and is famous for in Leica circles. After what seemed about 20 pages of opinions completely ignoring the article and trashing film I just couldn't continue with it. Look up any such articles and internet discussions from a few years back, always went the same way completely ignoring anything remotely evidential such as high res scans. Even hinting that film is still competitive for reasonable size prints is like criticising someones religion, there is little as powerful in this world as the cult of the new, especially when that cult has a whole media machine around it which exists purely to worship the new.
 

pdeeh

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Hmm. I've got a few photography magazines from the '70s and '80s kicking about.

Curiously, they seem to be full of new product announcements and discussions about why the newest cameras are best and older ones not so good.

"market capitalism" relies utterly on the idea that old is bad, new is good, get rid of old, buy new new new ... the US motor industry invented "planned obsolescence" in the middle of the 20th century, so let's not be disingenuous about this and try and pin the diminution of film photography on some sort of digital conspiracy: It's pointless and a waste of energy to do so.

Being angry that technological evolution has taken place and using every thread about film manufacture and marketing to bang on about the awfulness of digital photography is just picking at scabs and sores.

For those of us who like to use film, the important thing is to establish how a vanishingly small market can be maintained or even grown a little.
 

PKM-25

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Precisely, so when it comes to marketing film, the last thing we as the film users want to do is engage the digital zealots on purely technical terms. Film is no longer so much about the technical as it is about a niche creative choice. The digital hype machine goes well beyond cameras, it is a multi-billion dollar entity who's sole purpose is to get as many people as possible to buy into the notion that the latest is always the greatest.
 

RattyMouse

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The digital hype machine goes well beyond cameras, it is a multi-billion dollar entity who's sole purpose is to get as many people as possible to buy into the notion that the latest is always the greatest.

Damn, that's a great line! Very well said Dan!
 
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Found this from TIP in my personal email today. (Here's the original version.)

The question has been posed: Just what would film advertising look like in 2014? The 1980s-based reasoning seems to be that since nobody reads magazines anymore, all advertising is useless. And the thinking goes no further than that painfully obvious observation and questionable conclusion.

Well, this is what it looks like.

It's a combination technical bulletin and product advertisement. It's delivered directly to the customer. (Yes, that means you must actively learn who they are.) It's an update to explain why there is a product shortage. It's an explanation of why that shortage is happening. Including details on a particular key raw material shortage. It's a forward-looking roadmap to let the customer know what the company is thinking and where it is headed. It's a timeline to reassure that nothing bad has happened in a vacuum (i.e., nothing is sneaking up on you, or us). And it's even a human resources description of a critical new technical hire, and how that bodes well for the future.

But most importantly, it's not silence. This page has not been intentionally left blank.

So there is precious little room for customer-based fears of the unknown to give rise to ugly rumors. It's designed to co-op the customer into believing that they exist at a peer level with TIP. A symbiotic relationship. Not a subordinate relationship. So nobody will be out there making wild-eyed public assertions that TIP is shutting down. (Another big difference, today everything anyone says is public, and companies must learn to deal with that reality.) Or that products are being discontinued. Or staff fired.

If after reading this you don't recognize it as a traditional glossy magazine advertising campaign, there's a reason for that. And that reason is that it's far, far more effective than any magazine advertisement ever was. Times change. Customer communications change. Marketing strategies change. It's not 1980 anymore.


An Update on Impossible Color Fim Production

Recently, our customers have noticed with some alarm that an increasing number of Impossible films have been out-of-stock for extended periods on our web shop. Even in many of our largest retail partners, there has been little or no inventory, especially of color films.

In this open letter to our customers, Impossible’s CEO, Creed O’Hanlon, explains what’s going on:

“August 19th, 2013, was something of a watershed for Impossible’s ambitious plans to revive Polaroid’s™ classic integral film formats. On that day, on my instruction, all production at Impossible’s film plant in Enschede, in the Netherlands, was suspended and a complete review of our production and quality control processes was undertaken.

“When production resumed, a month later, a new, incremental process of development was instituted to ensure each new batch of film we produced was an improvement on the batch before.

“We also changed the nomenclature and packaging for our entire film range, making them more easily identifiable and understood.

“In November, 2013, we were very fortunate to be able to recruit Stephen Herchen – a founder of Zink Imaging and a former Chief Technology Officer for Polaroid™, who had worked directly with Polaroid’s™ legendary founder and inventor, Edwin Land – as Impossible’s CTO and Chief Operating Officer.

“Stephen’s arrival further energised our research and development programs based in Enschede and Monheim, Germany. It wasn’t long before customers were expressing their enthusiasm for our new films, particularly our B&W 600 and SX-70 films, which were, for the first time, made entirely with positive and negative sheets manufactured within our Monheim plant.

“The right components and chemicals are key to the development and manufacture of good films. In early 2014, we were informed by one of our suppliers that we would no longer be able to buy the most important component in our color films, the so-called ‘electron donor’, from them. We had only two alternative suppliers and both required longer than expected delivery times.

“Nevertheless, under Stephen’s direction, plans were drawn up to fast-track Impossible color films towards what we took to calling Impossible Generation 2.0. These plans will soon result in a faster processing, sharper and more stable color film for all our existing formats.

“But as the saying goes, ‘there’s many a slip ‘twixt cup and lip’. Unplanned delays in supply and obstacles in achieving the right paste formulation for our new positive and negative sheets created a shortfall in the production of Color 600 film in May, this year, and this worsened in June, when inventories of Color SX-70 were also affected. In Europe and the USA, this shortfall became so acute, inventories of standard, white-frame color films ran out completely.

“Late last week, vital chemical components arrived at the factory and production was finally able to resume. It will take another week or so to ramp up production and ship the output to our warehouses in Europe, the USA and Asia.

“Will the new films be worth the wait? There will always be room for further improvement. At Impossible, we are totally dedicated to a process of continuous refinement. However, this would not be possible without the relentless (and forgiving) support of our customers, whom we regard as our partners in this process.

“Please continue to give us your feedback (yes, and your criticisms). And thank you all for your patience.”


Ken
 
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kb3lms

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And giving the underlying message of: the inventories are running out. Some products are even out of stock.

Thereby implying: you aren't the only one that likes our stuff. It's so freakin great that when we have a manufacturing burp all the product gets bought up because lots and lots and lots of people want it. You, Mr. Customer, are on the Bandwagon.

And that is one of the oldest advertising / marketing schemes there is. Used very well and apparently successfully by the fine people at TIP.

The customer has been educated and the message delivered. Maybe I'll just dig out that Polaroid camera I have somewhere and buy a box, when it is available, of course.

Well done!
 

PKM-25

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But most importantly, it's not silence. This page has not been intentionally left blank.

OK, lets just assume this was an indirect shot across the bow in how you really wish KA would come whisper “I love you Ken” in your ear…

I just checked out the Impossible site for kicks as I don’t really use instant films, never likely to really. What I did not see in their product line up is anything but very niche instant film related offerings, no surprise there ( although the 35K in refurbished cameras is a pleasant eye opener, wish someone would do that with darkroom equipment ).

So this is a small company, built in and for the digital post season, not General Dynamics, Apple, Fuji…or Kodak Alaris Holdings, LLC. As this is a “Grass Roots” kind of business machine, I would expect their internal polices in terms of product roadmaps and customer outreach to be a lot…and I do mean a **LOT** looser, so they are.

Again, nice try Ken, but you can not expect all companies to be just like ADOX, ILFORD and TIP, in terms of how they deal with product roadmaps and corporate web presence. I would love it if KA came out with a great new marketing presence to match their near peerless films, but as long those films are available, I am using them as are thousands of others.

So unlike you and a handful of others on this site, I do not see their current communications as a failure to meet customer expectations, especially when all I have to do is write or call and get an answer to a question. The film is on the shelf for a good price, the QC is truly without peer, the response to my inquires come quickly and are always helpful. And they are not even a year old yet Ken, some more personnel movements in upper tiers of management were announced today, so this is still fresh and needs to get settled for the long haul.

I doubt KA will ever give you personally what you want Ken, but maybe in the near future, beyond stellar films, they will give us all what we actually need.
 
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OK, lets just assume...

Interesting that based solely on TIP's outreach advertising which ended up being virally posted to APUG, you "just checked out the Impossible site for kicks as I don’t really use instant films, never likely to really."

Call me crazy, but isn't that exactly what advertising is supposed to make you do? Could be wrong, but I think you just proved my point.

Told you it was effective...



Ken
 
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OK, lets just assume this was an indirect shot across the bow in how you really wish KA would come whisper “I love you Ken” in your ear...
Ken will answer for himself [Edit: he posted while I was composing this], but I've never gotten the impression he's seeking any such thing.

...you can not expect all companies to be just like ADOX, ILFORD and TIP, in terms of how they deal with product roadmaps and corporate web presence...
Consumers can expect anything they wish. Companies can ignore or meet those expectations.

...I do not see their [Kodak Alaris'] current communications as a failure to meet customer expectations...
I see Kodak Alaris current communications as a definite failure to meet the expectations of some consumers. However, I don't see Kodak Alaris' current communications as a failure in any real sense. Its responses (or lack of substantive responses) to submitted questions have clearly communicated the company's plans. Kodak Alaris will milk film as long as doing so is profitable. It will concentrate primarily on its digital business. That is all. Expect nothing more.
 

RattyMouse

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That's the message I received from Kodak Alaris during their recent communications. When given every chance to comment on the future of their efforts with film, they declined to give any substantial message. I can only conclude that KA has no interest in the future of film and so will just milk it for the cash it can deliver to KPP.
 

PKM-25

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Devil's advocate, can someone please elaborate then what is meant by Kodak Alaris "Milking" film for as long as they can?
 
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... they will give us all what we actually need.

Rolling Stones? "You can't always get what you want"
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need

The thing about film is that it's only in most people's mind as, "a thing of the past."

Which brings to mind Black Sabbath's "Iron Man":
Is he alive or dead?
Has he thoughts within his head?
We'll just pass him there
why should we even care?

Not that film will have its revenge of terror upon digital, just that an attitude of, "aw, shucks, I'll just shuffle off here," doesn't cut it for me. When I have shown my 4x5 chromes to most people (who don't have a vision problem), they are freaking amazed. The religious vitriol from the digital fan base is just that: religious vitriol. Sure, it's fueled by the hype machine of modern marketing. Why do you think people go nuts arguing about the various camera brands? It's all hype. It's all based on the primitive survival instinct of acquisition, driven to ferocity by a fundamentally vacuous life style.

Just because film is "paved over" doesn't mean that it can't poke it's head through the hype. But there needs to be that sprout coming up. Where are the Kodak Coloramas? Sure, the Coloramas were Norman Rockwell-esque advertising fabrications, but they were still 18ft x 60ft. There have only been a few honest side-by-side comparisons of digital and film. One was a number of years ago at Twin Lens Life, and another was Tim Parkin's comparison. But not a real peep from the film manufacturers. Sure, there was a little exhibition of 2ft x 6ft reproductions of the Colorama displays, but any of us can do that ourselves. What we can't do is the giant display. Where is the gallery of awesome? Where is the display 20ft high?

The only thing that the manufacturers need to do is show that they are celebrating something that is now, here, and it's awesome.
 

PKM-25

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Devil's advocate, can someone please elaborate then what is meant by Kodak Alaris "Milking" film for as long as they can?

Dan, you do realize the inevitable sad fate of milking cows when they can no longer produce milk, right?

(Hint: My dog knows the answer...)

:eek:

Ken
 

StoneNYC

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*snip*...

Again, nice try Ken, but you can not expect all companies to be just like ADOX, ILFORD and TIP, in terms of how they deal with product roadmaps and corporate web presence.... *snip*

Dan, I respect you, but I have to point out that you just listed the ONLY-still-financially-successful film producers...

In other words, you're saying not everyone can be successful and work to promote their business in the new market.

And then you deny that kodak is doing anything wrong, while acknowledging that these 3 companies are able to do it, and do it well enough that even you can acknowledge it.

This whole anti kodak thing will go on forever, I just think it's time to recognize it, to say to yourself and others here "yes I see that they are failing, I know they really do need to step up their game, but in the mean time let's try and not bash them further into the ground."

Yes you did the last part, but I think your biggest issue is not acknowledging there is a problem, that kodak isn't actually doing anything positive for their own film business, you have blinders on and that's why everyone is seemingly "coming at you" because you're being bull headed about something obvious.

"We will continue to sell film if people continue to buy enough of it to make it profitable to do so" is the statement KA made (paraphrased).

That is the definition of "milking the cow".

Just admit that you do see that kodak is not taking (very cheap) steps to promote film like those other companies you mentioned are doing, and people will stop being on your back about this issue.

Again, much respect, keep shooting and get off of APUG like your wife says you need to step back and shoot and save your health. But remove the blinders. You're buffered enough with your film stock that it won't affect you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make a little window to see out of your film castle to see the army approaching
 

PKM-25

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"We will continue to sell film if people continue to buy enough of it to make it profitable to do so" is the statement KA made (paraphrased).

That is the definition of "milking the cow"

Thanks Stone for your opinion, I can't say I agree with it and no, I am not going to cave or change my opinion, largely because I believe that KA is still trying to settle into what will hopefully be a very long term business prospect for them.

Perhaps you are missing when I say I would love to see an emerging marketing presence from KA? But it's not a deal breaker for many who use Kodak films and despite my earlier frustration with bashing of KA on here, I now doubt it makes a minuscule dent in their image since most even on this site just pass right on by and keep on shooting...

But for the record, I am sitting here on the couch along with my wife, we are both working on the computer, her some training before she travels tomorrow, me some FTP uploads to clients and invoices....in short, life is good if not great and I could not be happier, more than happy to keep being the other voice of these often heated opinions.

Now, you gave an opinion regarding what is meant by "Milking it", I will await a few others before continuing with an opinion on that...

Ratty, Sal, others, do you agree with Stone's definition above of Milking it?
 
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StoneNYC

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Fair enough, thanks for clarifying what you said about their marketing presence.

I agree I think they are still settling into their new position I just think it would be smarter to have FIRST created some kind of online presence before increasing their prices. It would prevent a lot of abandon ship to ilford happenings...

Just read my signature
 

pdeeh

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It's always instructive to negate a statement to see how it looks, comparedto the original:

"We will continue to sell film even if not enough people continue to buy enough of it to make it profitable to do so"

hmm.
 

PKM-25

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Sometimes I want to fly out to Rochester, knock on the door and ask "OK, what is *really* going on?"
 
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