An ebay category / ethical question

Old-N-Feeble said:

BVY, so if a seller has an item that they don't know if it works and they state that very clearly in the description, but it's in the 'working' category, but there's a malfunction... what then? They clearly stated that they don't know if it works.

Click to expand...

They also clearly selected this:

Used: An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

If they chose that description and claimed not to know if it really works, then they should be prepared to negotiate a partial refund or accept a return.

As a seller, it's important to make a listing that doesn't contradict itself. As a buyer, I shouldn't have to guess.

Anyway, what's the point? The OP is obviously going to do precisely what he's asking us to condone. Sorry bub... no go-ahead and pat on the back from me.

bvy said:

They also clearly selected this:

Used: An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

If they chose that description and claimed not to know if it really works, then they should be prepared to negotiate a partial refund or accept a return.

As a seller, it's important to make a listing that doesn't contradict itself. As a buyer, I shouldn't have to guess.

Click to expand...

You don't have to guess if the written description clearly states "operational condition unknown". That's pretty simple. It doesn't matter anyway because eBay always sides with the buyer. If a buyer is the type to take advantage then they'll take advantage. End of story.

Old-N-Feeble said:

You don't have to guess if the written description clearly states "operational condition unknown". That's pretty simple. It doesn't matter anyway because eBay always sides with the buyer. If a buyer is the type to take advantage then they'll take advantage. End of story.

Click to expand...

It's not the buyer taking advantage, it's the buyer taking a chance... which the seller openly invited by listing it as they did.

bvy said:

They also clearly selected this:

Used: An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

If they chose that description and claimed not to know if it really works, then they should be prepared to negotiate a partial refund or accept a return.

As a seller, it's important to make a listing that doesn't contradict itself. As a buyer, I shouldn't have to guess.

Click to expand...

Who is being unethecal, the person listing something in the more desirable good used category and stands to make more of a profit but it's *cough* untested *cough* or me returning it in same shape if it doesn't work. BTW I'm not even looking for a camera, it was just an ethics question.

kingbuzzie said:

Who is being unethecal, the person listing something in the more desirable good used category and stands to make more of a profit but it's *cough* untested *cough* or me returning it in same shape if it doesn't work.

Click to expand...

The seller should thank you for testing his/her item and returning it at your expense.

kingbuzzie said:

Who is being unethecal, the person listing something in the more desirable good used category and stands to make more of a profit but it's *cough* untested *cough* or me returning it in same shape if it doesn't work. BTW I'm not even looking for a camera, it was just an ethics question.

Click to expand...

Then you put this in the wrong APUG category. It should be in "Ethics and philosophy".

So if something will be in "For parts or non working" category you should send it back if it works?
If something is untested it may be non working. I hope you understand it.

zozur said:

So if something will be in "For parts or non working" category you should send it back if it works?
If something is untested it may be non working. I hope you understand it.

Click to expand...

There is no untested eBay option in used cameras, it is in vintage. Although reputable sellers sometimes list untested in the non-working section, and this is probably the correct option and what I would do.

Like my friend, Old-N-Feeble, I use to be an Ebay Seller. I do still sell photography items occasionally. I would not advise this today but when digital killed film on a professional level, there were so many people selling their film gear. I would have pages of items on my Ebay watch list (mostly medium format) that I would revise every night. Here and there would be items that would slip through the cracks and sell cheap enough that I would buy it and resell it on Ebay for a profit. I didn't get rich or anything but it did help support my photography hobby.

My point is that after buying and selling all that gear I found most people to be honest. Yes, I did have a couple bad experiences from bad sellers but never from buyers. Even those experiences worked out. I guess I was lucky.

As far as buying on Ebay. Like my friend, Leigh, says. Any item listed as untested I would figure something is probably wrong with it and not bid or bid accordingly. I try not to buy things that may be a problem and need to be returned. I don't have the time or energy for that.

By the way, my Cards just won over the World Champion Cubs. It should be a fun season!

Leigh B said:

A description of "untested" or anything similar means IT DOES NOT WORK.

Click to expand...

In my experience, that's not always the case. I've bought quite a few cameras listed as "untested" which have worked just fine. Of course I am very much aware there is a good possibility that it will not work, and pay/bid accordingly. I suppose I've been quite lucky so far; I have yet to buy a camera off eBay which hasn't worked at all. (Other than with a non-functioning exposure meter or in need of light seal replacement.) As a rule, I stay away from cameras shown covered with crud and dust, as this is a good indication that it has been stored improperly and its interior mechanical parts are probably in poor shape as well. Dents, cracks and chips are also not a good sign.
Ultimately, it comes down to how much you are willing to pay for something that may or may not work and cannot be returned. How much you are willing to gamble. For me, it's no more than 25% of what I would pay for a guaranteed fully functioning unit.

i can almost see the listing "Selling this on behalf of my friend whose recently deceased partner was a keen photographer. He/she looked after their equipment and cosmetically it looks very well cared for but I know nothing about photography (I dont even know how to turn it on!) so selling as untested. " - feedback 10 - 100% - last feedback three years ago for purchase of some craft materials.

the camera is a hasselblad x-pan for $800.

Not everyone has a shutter speed tester, so unless is has been shutter speed tested its not tested even though it worked fine for 5000 rolls? you can argue your bs semantics all day but it all boils down to buying under false pretenses is FRAUD.

mgb74 said:

Not exactly correct. In the regular section, you can list as "parts, not working" or "used" (ignoring the "new" categories). When you list as used, you are stating that it's in working condition. Look up the ebay terms and conditions. Those are your choices, there is no "maybe". So someone listing as used, but stating not tested, is still - under the ebay T&Cs - stating that it's in working condition. (In the vintage category, you don't have to claim it as one or the other.)

I have mixed feelings about how to address the OP's issue. If it's a small seller, I just assume it's not working and move on. But there have been some high volume sellers - who I believe should know the rules - where I've been tempted. But so far, just not worth the hassle.

As to returning a perfectly good item, I know that happens. It's happened to me - luckily just once. I'm most concerned about a buyer dropping an item, then claiming damage. I take cell phone pics as I pack the item but don't know if that would do much good in a dispute.

Click to expand...

I'm a power seller I know the rules.... working and tested are two different things. Shutters can work, they may be off 1/2 stop and still work.

someone can post something in a regular category and say they don't know if it works
that is why you ask questions about condition &c
and ask them, if you buy it, if it doesn't work, since they don't know one way or another,
can you return it for a refund.
not sure why it is unethical listing something in a "regular category" instead of parts/repair/broken if you don't know

i've contacted a seller by phone ( they are a camera store ) when they said they were selling a lens from an estate sale
and didn't know if it worked &c and they tested it with me on the phone and it didnt' work .. when i asked them
if they would please revise their description so people would know it was broken and untested/not sure if it worked anymore
the guy called me harsh names unlisted it, and relisted it 5x his then bid-price ( it was at 300$ he relisted it at 1500$ )
knowing full well it was broken and tested, with the same "not sure if it works, untested, bought from an estate sale"
description..
THAT is not the same thing as you are asking ...

An "Unknown" or "Untested" listing option, in addition to "It works" and "It doesn't work" is kind of a useless design.

"This piece of junk that is currently at best an ugly paperweight because it is broken... Well, I totally have no idea whether or not it works, wink wink, so I'm just going to list it here, in the 'unknown' section, and pawn the broken piece off onto some other poor sod to deal with..."

If you give people the option to say "Don't know, might work, might not, I'm not sure and don't know how to find out, and the buyer doesn't get any manner of protection against misleading postings..." then just how many items do you expect to be listed as "Not working"?


When it comes to something like shutter speeds, I think that it is fairly easy to eye ball general consistency, and that there is nothing wrong with listing something as "Working" with a clear indication that you are unsure of the timing. If they are all consistent and in the ball park of where they should be, then you can still compensate after all, and it still works. As long as the seller was clear in the listing about that, then I don't see an issue with it.

The few times that I have bought items that say untested on eBay I have sent the seller a message asking to be able to return it (with me paying shipping) if the items is non functional or functioning but unusable. All but one have been happy to sell me the item and as it turns out they worked fine (most notably my Arax 60 kit). The one seller who didn't want to sell me the item (point and shoot) couldn't even be bothered to buy a battery an test if it powered on so it was probably good that I "missed out" on that one.

Not to detail the thread but I have a question about ebay returns. Say a seller sells something (an X-pan since it was mentioned previously) and does not offer a return on the item. Below where the it says "return" is:

Guarantee:
Money Back Guarantee | See details- opens in a new window or tab
Get the item you ordered or get your money back.
Covers your purchase price and original shipping.

Can a buyer still return an item using the ebay guarantee if the seller doesn't not except returns? I've always been curious about this.

FWIW I won't typically buy from someone who doesn't offer returns though I have seen a few items that i'd like and seriously thought about it.

MrBrowning said:

Not to detail the thread but I have a question about ebay returns. Say a seller sells something (an X-pan since it was mentioned previously) and does not offer a return on the item. Below where the it says "return" is:

Guarantee:
Money Back Guarantee | See details- opens in a new window or tab
Get the item you ordered or get your money back.
Covers your purchase price and original shipping.

Can a buyer still return an item using the ebay guarantee if the seller doesn't not except returns? I've always been curious about this.

FWIW I won't typically buy from someone who doesn't offer returns though I have seen a few items that i'd like and seriously thought about it.

Click to expand...

Is the hypothetical XPan camera "as described"?

Let's say it is but it's a case of buyers regret and the buyer claims it isn't working. I keep reading eBay always sides with the buyer but what (if any) protection does a seller have in a case like this?

eBay does have "vintage photography" and "photography" sections but those bear no relationship to whether the items within are working or not.

A vintage camera 100 years old might be working perfectly. A 6 month old camera might be dead. What you look at is the description. Many people selling cameras are doing so having inherited them or found them in the attic. They are often not the original owners and are not interested in cameras....and necessarily do not always know how to test them. If they're not into film, one cannot reasonably expect them to spend money on putting a roll of film through and developing it before sale. Indeed many people believe that even 120 and 35mm are no longer available.

When buying a camera listed as "working" or at least not listed as "parts"...I do check the description carefully. You can generally tell by the wording used and quality of photographs of the offered item whether the vendor is au fait with cameras or not.

Similarly with cameras offered as "parts/not working" when the seller says they are untested...it's possible that the camera works.

As for light seals, I have been lucky but I would expect any camera much over 20 years to have a good chance that the seals will have begun perishing even if it's sat in it's box since it was bought. I would say a camera could be described as "NOS" in it's box but have faults due to the passage of time.

With shutter speeds...again we are talking normal wear and tear rather than outright damage or a broken camera if they are "in the ballpark" after 30 years. Most people won't have the equipment to test the shutter speeds anyway other than looking and observing that 1/200 seems a lot quicker than 1/25.

If it ain't explicitly stated that it's been tested and works....then assume it might have faults that are not apparent upon examination by a non-expert.

You gamble buying something second hand. Personally if I buy a camera and it isn't fully functioning I tend to clean it up, do what I can to make it work better and sell it on with an accurate description of the faults. Generally I get my money back because when buying an older camera I will only pay what I can easily afford to lose should it turn out not to work at all. One can always get a fiver for a nice looking camera/body even if it doesn't work.

Unless I felt the description had been fraudulent, I would never return a camera. Chances are the inexpert sellers will toss them away upon return rather than try again....so a potentially repairable camera has been lost.

When I sell cameras, I do put a test roll of film through first if I haven't actually used the camera within the last six months...but that costs me pennies to load 6 frames of bulk film and hand develop. A non-enthusiast at best would be throwing $10 or £10 at buying the cheapest C41 film and getting it developed...often more than they expect to raise in selling the camera.

So....I personally would not return a camera unless I felt the written description was deliberately inaccurate or certainly misleading. If a camera sold as "working" has a few very minor faults such as the light seals are on the way out (might not always be picked up even when tested with film) and the shutter speeds are a little sluggish....I can still use the camera so I am not fussed.

MrBrowning said:

Let's say it is but it's a case of buyers regret and the buyer claims it isn't working. I keep reading eBay always sides with the buyer but what (if any) protection does a seller have in a case like this?

Click to expand...

Then the buyer is a liar. All bets are off. who knows, but probably... and only because the buyer is a liar.

BrianShaw said:

Then the buyer is a liar. All bets are off. who knows, but probably... and only because the buyer is a liar.

Click to expand...

I take it you mean ebay would side with the buyer. I'd hate to be the seller in a situation like that and I'd hope a buyer is a better person than that. Anyways back to the thread topic. Thanks for the answer.

kingbuzzie said:

*Just to clarify, since I received a rather hostile message... I've never done this. I was just curious about the ethics of sending back an untested broken camera that is KNOWINGLY listed in the wrong eBay section to gain an advantage*

Iknow that many old cameras are sold in the vintage section of ebay, and with that you "get what you get and you don't throw a fit". I also see that there are plenty of cameras sold in the regular photography section that theoretically should be covered by ebay guarantee that it is as listed (working / condition). But then I see many listers in that section are stating "not tested" "not sure if it works" etc. Has anyone taken advantage of this to buy a camera, test it and send it back if it doesn't work? Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded? Also I really have a feeling some unethical sellers list cameras as "untested" because they know they are broken. Has anyone run into this issue, and if it went to the ebay arbitrator do they have protections for selling something "not tested" in a section for fully functioning cameras?

Click to expand...

Here is no advantage in posting under another category. Category gives no advantage at all.

If any item is listed as in used condition it get automatic assignment from ebay listing engine what item is in used, but in working condition. This is it. USED=WORKING. And seller is agreed to it.
If here is the moron who not only listing it as USED=WORKING while making lame statements like UNKNOWN, UNTESTED, but making hostile comments on received question, I recommend to report this idiot to ebay. Morons needs to be booted.

If you are buying item which is listed as USED=WORKING, but with lame statement as UKNOWN, UNTESTED you are protected by ebay. At the end it is seller (moron) fault for not to follow ebay seller rules, but braking it. Those who are braking rules needs to be punished.

Now, if it is studge from small town who runs it as "business" and sells some interesting camera under very low price among another two hundreds non-photography junk items, it is relatively simple camera and it doesn't looks like trashed - why not to buy it for $20, instead of average $100 and take little risk without taking advantage on the village idiot, who sells mostly vintage buttons?

fstop said:

I'm a power seller I know the rules.... working and tested are two different things. Shutters can work, they may be off 1/2 stop and still work.

Click to expand...

If they're off by 1/2 stop, I'd say they're working and in compliance. The ebay definition of "used" is working, not tested per se. If I run a roll through a camera I"m selling, and get good results, I consider that tested (though I will state "film tested"). So I consider an item known to be working to be tested.

You may have a higher standard for the term. And I would expect a higher standard for the term on a lens coming back from a CLA.

Once again, listing an item as "used" - regardless of the category - means that you guarantee that it's working. Not perfectly, not straight from the factory, but working as the item was intended. I'll forgive the low-volume seller who mistakenly states "used" but in the description clearly says "not tested". But the high volume seller who does this is being dishonest and I have no sympathy for them.

As old-and-feeble said, a separate condition for "unknown" would solve this. But I'm afraid that every known non-working camera would also end up there.