An ebay category / ethical question

BrianShaw · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
But eBay doesn't have an untested section. It's either working or parts. If something is knowing listed in the working section to gain a few more shekels, is that as described no matter what they write below? Again I've never taken advantage of this.

Correct. But it has "untested" and "for parts" and "not working" listings. Just as it has "minty" and "fully functional" and "worked ten years ago when I last used it" listings. Read each listing as an individual item. Forget what section it's listed under... that's just a generic organization.

Your suspicion of seller intent, unfortunately, may be saying more than you intend....

BTW, I've been buying on eBay since the 1990s with only a few troubles, but never saw a section called "working" for either old cameras or old cars or anything else. Maybe I'm not observant enough but have done quite welll by not making assumptions or counting on anything more than what I can verify by the description specifically stated and the pictures.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

Semantics. I mean there is either new, refurbished, parts / not working. Even the used states fully functional.

BrianShaw · Apr 2, 2017

Well good luck you you. What are you looking for???

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

BrianShaw said:
If I'm not mistaken, the buyer protection is for nondelivery or not as described. "Untested" is exactly that - a nonstatement about functionality. What isn't said is just as important to consider as what is said. Just like when buying a used car.

I think what is being expressed in this thread is that you can't make assumptions of functionality based on what category an item is listed if that functionality is not specifically stated. But the extension is that with older equipment it may need an overhaul to be working as it once did even if the ad specifically states that it is in working condition.

Old cameras are basically a rich person's sport!

Sorry you are getting hostile messages.

Not precisely... what the OP asked about is an item that is 'properly described' but is listed in a 'wrong category'.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
But eBay doesn't have an untested section. It's either working or parts. If something is knowing listed in the working section to gain a few more shekels, is that as described no matter what they write below? Again I've never taken advantage of this.

... your OP below...

kingbuzzie said:
*Just to clarify, since I received a rather hostile message... I've never done this. I was just curious about the ethics of sending back an untested broken camera that is listed in the WORKING eBay section*

Iknow that many old cameras are sold in the vintage section of ebay, and with that you "get what you get and you don't throw a fit". I also see that there are plenty of cameras sold in the regular photography section that theoretically should be covered by ebay guarantee that it is as listed (working / condition). But then I see many listers in that section are stating "not tested" "not sure if it works" etc. Has anyone taken advantage of this to buy a camera, test it and send it back if it doesn't work? Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded? Also I really have a feeling some unethical sellers list cameras as "untested" because they know they are broken. Has anyone run into this issue, and if it went to the ebay arbitrator do they have protections for selling something "not tested" in a section for fully functioning cameras?

Am I missing something?

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

I KNOW I SHOULDN'T POST THIS...

In think some of us want to know (repeating myself)... what is your eBay moniker? I'm quite aware that I should not be so blunt but I want to block you from buying from me. BTW, I have 100 percent positive feedback with a count of nearly 1450 and only half of buyers ever bother to leave positive feedback but ALL buyers will leave negative FB. So that's approximately 3000 happy buyers and 0 unhappy buyers.

What's your eBay moniker?

BrianShaw · Apr 2, 2017

Old-N-Feeble said:
Not precisely... what the OP asked about is an item that is 'properly described' but is listed in a 'wrong category'.

Are you saying that buyer protection applies if an item is in the wrong category? If not... I completely understood the question and have no idea of what you are attempting to correct.

mgb74 · Apr 2, 2017

fstop said:
Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded?
No its called fraud.
What you propose is as bad as you are saying sellers are.
First there is no rule on ebay that selling in the regular section a body needs to be in working condition.If the seller says untested then the risk is on your side, if you buy an untested camera and you test it and find faults that does not mean you can return it.
Sellers are getting burned because knobs are returning perfectly functional cameras and complaining. Many times they damage the cameras themselves costing the seller money, other times they remove parts they want and send back a body missing pieces or ruin shutters purposely etc.

Whats your ebay name?

Not exactly correct. In the regular section, you can list as "parts, not working" or "used" (ignoring the "new" categories). When you list as used, you are stating that it's in working condition. Look up the ebay terms and conditions. Those are your choices, there is no "maybe". So someone listing as used, but stating not tested, is still - under the ebay T&Cs - stating that it's in working condition. (In the vintage category, you don't have to claim it as one or the other.)

I have mixed feelings about how to address the OP's issue. If it's a small seller, I just assume it's not working and move on. But there have been some high volume sellers - who I believe should know the rules - where I've been tempted. But so far, just not worth the hassle.

As to returning a perfectly good item, I know that happens. It's happened to me - luckily just once. I'm most concerned about a buyer dropping an item, then claiming damage. I take cell phone pics as I pack the item but don't know if that would do much good in a dispute.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

Old-N-Feeble said:
I KNOW I SHOULDN'T POST THIS...

In think some of us want to know (repeating myself)... what is your eBay moniker? I'm quite aware that I should not be so blunt but I want to block you from buying from me. BTW, I have 100 percent positive feedback with a count of nearly 1450 and only half of buyers ever bother to leave positive feedback but ALL buyers will leave negative FB. So that's approximately 3000 happy buyers and 0 unhappy buyers.

What's your eBay moniker?

It was just a stupid hypothetical ethical question. My eBay rating is 100%, and don't worry I wouldn't buy from you anyway because you tried to sell me a dumb plasic cap for 25 dollars. I really wish I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

BrianShaw said:
Are you saying that buyer protection applies if an item is in the wrong category? If not... I completely understood the question and have no idea of what you are attempting to correct.

No, eBay's Buyer Protection is nearly bulletproof. I was addressing your "non-delivery" and "not as described" language in the post I quoted. What I was trying to clarify is the OP isn't asking about those infractions. He's asking about an item that's (properly described) but listed in (what he considers) the wrong eBay category. He seems to want to use semantics (or honest errors) (or eBay limitations) to take advantage.

Kodachromeguy · Apr 2, 2017

This very confusing. What are you asking, kingbuzzie? Sorry, I don't get it.

And Old-n-feeble, I have the same experience of many buyers never leaving any feedback. They just disappear. I don't know if they loved the product, didn't like the product, wanted a return, or anything.

Also, someone earlier mentioned the problem of scumbags buying an item, then returning it with missing parts or knobs. The other buyer scam is to claim the product is not as listed but if you will refund some of the price, they'll accept. After this happened to me recently, I understand why many sellers now state that they will not refund any proportion of the fee, but if the product is returned in its entirety intact, then they will refund the original cost. Really, ePrey is not worth it to sell items valued less than $50 in my opinion. I

BrianShaw · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
It was just a stupid hypothetical ethical question. My eBay rating is 100%, and don't worry I wouldn't buy from you anyway because you tried to sell me a dumb plasic cap for 25 dollars. I really wish I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

I know the feeling.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

Yeah, I

kingbuzzie said:
It was just a stupid hypothetical ethical question. My eBay rating is 100%, and don't worry I wouldn't buy from you anyway because you tried to sell me a dumb plasic cap for 25 dollars. I really wish I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

Yes, I erred on the price. I already admitted that in your WTB thread. If you don't want to buy from me, I'm truly fine with that. PM me your eBay moniker so I can block you... we're both happy.

BTW, a very helpful APUG member posted a link to very cheap genuine Rodenstock caps. Did you thank them for taking their time to help you with that?

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

Brian... did I mistreat you at some time, or was that a generic reply to the OP? Please LMK.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

Kodachromeguy said:
This very confusing. What are you asking, kingbuzzie? Sorry, I don't get it.

And Old-n-feeble, I have the same experience of many buyers never leaving any feedback. They just disappear. I don't know if they loved the product, didn't like the product, wanted a return, or anything.

Also, someone earlier mentioned the problem of scumbags buying an item, then returning it with missing parts or knobs. The other buyer scam is to claim the product is not as listed but if you will refund some of the price, they'll accept. After this happened to me recently, I understand why many sellers now state that they will not refund any proportion of the fee, but if the product is returned in its entirety intact, then they will refund the original cost. Really, ePrey is not worth it to sell items valued less than $50 in my opinion. I

Can't answer, too busy looking for grandmas who misposted on eBay and clubbing seals. But really I was just asking about sending cameras back that were not working that were listed in the functional category (perhaps to better sell it).... and using the untested defense. But now I really wish I wouldn't have. I really doesn't matter that I have never done this, because after all this is the internet.

Leigh B · Apr 2, 2017

A description of "untested" or anything similar means IT DOES NOT WORK.

End of story.

If you buy it expecting otherwise, shame on you.

- Leigh

Alan Gales · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
Can't answer, too busy looking for grandmas who misposted on eBay and clubbing seals. But really I was just asking about sending cameras back that were not working that were listed in the functional category (perhaps to better sell it).... and using the untested defense. But now I really wish I wouldn't have. I really doesn't matter that I have never done this, because after all this is the internet.

We all occasionally question ourselves if we are doing the right thing or not. I saw your thread as the same thing. You asked for help with an ethical question which you were not sure of. I see that as a good thing on your part.

Alan Gales · Apr 2, 2017

The St. Louis Cardinals just signed Yadier Molina to a three year contract. The Clydesdales just marched around Busch stadium. We are about to start our opening game with our rivals, the Chicago Cubs. Baseball season is here and all is good in the world. Well, lets just pretend it is.

faberryman · Apr 2, 2017

If the ad says it is working, and it isn't, send it back. If it says untested or is vague about its status, contact the seller and ask if you can return it if it doesn' work. Ethical issue solved.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

Alan Gales said:
We all occasionally question ourselves if we are doing the right thing or not. I saw your thread as the same thing. You asked for help with an ethical question which you were not sure of. I see that as a good thing on your part.

I'll second that.

MattKing · Apr 2, 2017

If the seller offers to accept returns, I'll consider buying something with a plan to consider returning it if, when I receive it, I don't like it as much as I hoped.
If I buy an item, receive it and I discover that the seller has made an error that is to my detriment, I'll consider trying to get all or at least some of my money back.
If I buy an item, receive it and I discover that the seller has made an error that is to the seller's detriment, I'll evaluate how best to react, given my unwillingness to take unfair advantage of people, but also my desire to get good deals.

bvy · Apr 2, 2017

If it's listed as "untested" or "as is" but NOT listed as "For parts or repair" then I expect it to work. And I'll return it or negotiate if it doesn't. The seller has to choose an item description at the time of listing, and those descriptions are pretty explicit. A lot of film cameras and related equipment that turn up fall into the hands of sellers that I don't expect to be able to fully test them.

That said, I don't try to take advantage of listing discrepancies. And further, I'll usually look a little harder to find a sale from someone who actually used the equipment.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

bvy said:
If it's listed as "untested" or "as is" but NOT listed as "For parts or repair" then I expect it to work. And I'll return it or negotiate if it doesn't. The seller has to choose an item description at the time of listing, and those descriptions are pretty explicit. A lot of film cameras and related equipment that turn up fall into the hands of sellers that I don't expect to be able to fully test them.

That said, I don't try to take advantage of listing discrepancies. And further, I'll usually look a little harder to find a sale from someone who actually used the equipment.

It was kind of my point that isn't it just as much seller beware if they knowingly (not Memaw Smith's mistaken listing) put it in the working category then claim it untested to cover their ass. The categories are there for a reason. Vintage is separate from used cameras for that reason. I'm shocked that even some seasoned sellers didn't know this.

Two23 · Apr 2, 2017

I buy quite a few vintage cameras on ebay. Generally I only buy from people who know what they are selling and post very clear photos. I've done pretty well.

Kent in SD

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
It was kind of my point that isn't it just as much seller beware if they knowingly (not Memaw Smith's mistaken listing) put it in the working category then claim it untested to cover their ass. The categories are there for a reason. Vintage is separate from used cameras for that reason. I'm shocked that even some seasoned sellers didn't know this.

So if a seller has an item that they don't know if it works and they state that very clearly in the description, but it's in the 'working' category, but there's a malfunction... what then? They clearly stated that they don't know if it works.

Yes, the seller must make a choice... "working" or "junk". Not much of a fair choice if they don't know how to test the item. There should be an "unknown" choice.

It seems to me that bargain hunters want to enforce the rules in their favor... fair enough. But that can be a double-edged sword. Unfortunately for eBay sellers, the far sharper edge belongs to the buyer. That's only bad when certain people take unfair advantage.

Fortunately, MOST people aren't like that. And consider this... eBay does investigate repeated unfair behaviors of both sellers and buyers. It's less likely but buyers can be banned too for abusing the rules.

An ebay category / ethical question

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